TATOC Affiliated Companies

Started by hal540uk, December 26, 2012, 14:55:22

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peachie

Carolinian , I have always agreed with what you have said in the past , and , as moderators on here have always stated , we are all allowed to state our own opinions , mine is to have a product that works for the people who can stand the maint fees , and are still able to travel and enjoy the high quality resorts , my stance has always been ob the side of those who cannot afford it , who are unable to travel , for instance , i spoke to a Mac Donalds owner whose husband went into hospital for an illness which sadly made him blind , the wife being unable to drive mwant they could not drive from the south coast upto the resort in scotland direction, after telling this to the resort and asking to take it back off them they got the reply .... being disabled does not stop you from being able to use the resort !! , THIS , is what im aiming at when i talk about an exit plan , whatever means is used and how it affects a resort i dont care , they can look after themselves.
But the main reason for my comment here is that after all the compassion that Carolinian has for Timeshare , im shocked at the slating being sent in his / her direction on this forum . TATOC , is funded by the resorts it protects , if that includes Spice / Aroma , then you make your bed as the saying goes , that incudes Silverpoint.
Having said this i supose its my turn for the ill comment ?


Mavo

Quote from: peachie on December 29, 2012, 12:59:15
Carolinian , I have always agreed with what you have said in the past , and , as moderators on here have always stated , we are all allowed to state our own opinions , mine is to have a product that works for the people who can stand the maint fees , and are still able to travel and enjoy the high quality resorts , my stance has always been ob the side of those who cannot afford it , who are unable to travel , for instance , i spoke to a Mac Donalds owner whose husband went into hospital for an illness which sadly made him blind , the wife being unable to drive mwant they could not drive from the south coast upto the resort in scotland direction, after telling this to the resort and asking to take it back off them they got the reply .... being disabled does not stop you from being able to use the resort !! , THIS , is what im aiming at when i talk about an exit plan , whatever means is used and how it affects a resort i dont care , they can look after themselves.
But the main reason for my comment here is that after all the compassion that Carolinian has for Timeshare , im shocked at the slating being sent in his / her direction on this forum . TATOC , is funded by the resorts it protects , if that includes Spice / Aroma , then you make your bed as the saying goes , that incudes Silverpoint.
Having said this i supose its my turn for the ill comment ?


Carolinian has been asked, in various manners, to produce proof of current activities that TATOC can act upon.
The simple fact is that, sadly, he has not delivered that proof.
He has seemed to deliver on "past performance" activities by pointing to various sources, unfortunately TATOC cannot act on past performance.
It can only place sanctions on affiliates who are proved to be currently engaged in negative consumer activities that break the TATOC code of conduct.
This is the present position and agreed TATOC policy.
  I am sorry that it is just a repeat of what has already been stated.

hal540uk

Dear Carolinian
Up to 2008 the TATOC remit was to represent owner committee's not individual timeshare owners. If owners did contact Tatoc direct they were referred to their own committee or if no committee the developer concerned.

In late2008 we opened the helpline to all timeshare owners whether their committees was a TATOC members or not. Records are now kept of all calls, emails etc. I will not go into the numbers now but they are available on the site. We always ask can we have the owner's permission to discuss their enquiry/problem with other parties in an effort to resolve, 95% agree.  This has become invaluable recently in helping to take legal action

Since the helpline opened TATOC has not received one complaint from a Flexiclub member or from any of Stuart Lamont's companies.

I am aware that others have posted on various sites but not as often as you. That is why I asked your assistance in getting proof by directing me to dissatisfied members.

It does not concern me how you feel about the company.

Your scenario about what could happen in the future is actually happening now with many resorts finding themselves in the situation of the managing company having more weeks than the owners.

Why?

Committees are asking them to take the weeks for the yearly management fee but, what happens if they do not get the yearly fees for the defaulted weeks. Fees rise, leading to more defaults and eventually the resort declines and close.

Many companies are offering to take weeks by changing ownership to points and most are fully compliance with the regulations.
Resort committees should be fully aware of the needs of their satisfied members and the way they accommodate members who wish to leave timeshare but, always remembering all  have the right to change from weeks to  points. It is the committees responsibility to plan well for the future.

A hard one to solve, but it is being addressed by TATOC who will launch a special project aimed at assisting resorts at the conference in March

You refer to other TATOC affiliated companies. I can assure you that all complaints/ enquiries are fully investigated.
In July 2012 one company was disaffiliated for non-compliance. Affiliation is reviewed automaticly yearly.

Harry Taylor
Time and tide waits for no man

Carolinian

Harry - Let me suggest one defensive mechanism that member-controlled resorts can deploy to stop the parasite operations.  One resort I am aware of that uses it is Stouts Hill.  That is simply to amend the governing instruments to provide that each member gets one vote no matter how many weeks they have.  That way these developers or points clubs only end up with one  vote in the AGM and get chopped down to size.

TATOC ought to be pushing all its member-controlled resorts to adopt this mechanism.

There are a boatload of complaints about Flexiclub South Africa on the Hello Peter consumer site in South Africa.  There also were on the Cr!meshare site, and indeed that site also included complaints about the much smaller Flexiclub UK.  It is indeed
strange that you do not get any.

And what about Silverpoint?
 

Carolinian

And if TATOC's standards are that it would accept even the likes of John ''Goldfinger'' Palmer, if he promises to be a good boy now and obey the TATOC code of conduct in the future, inspite of what he has done in the past, then perhaps TATOC ought to give serious thought to reviewing those policies.

A leopard cannot change its spots, and these timeshare conmen do not fundamentally become squeaky clean businessmen.


Quote from: Mavo on December 29, 2012, 13:43:30
Quote from: peachie on December 29, 2012, 12:59:15
Carolinian , I have always agreed with what you have said in the past , and , as moderators on here have always stated , we are all allowed to state our own opinions , mine is to have a product that works for the people who can stand the maint fees , and are still able to travel and enjoy the high quality resorts , my stance has always been ob the side of those who cannot afford it , who are unable to travel , for instance , i spoke to a Mac Donalds owner whose husband went into hospital for an illness which sadly made him blind , the wife being unable to drive mwant they could not drive from the south coast upto the resort in scotland direction, after telling this to the resort and asking to take it back off them they got the reply .... being disabled does not stop you from being able to use the resort !! , THIS , is what im aiming at when i talk about an exit plan , whatever means is used and how it affects a resort i dont care , they can look after themselves.
But the main reason for my comment here is that after all the compassion that Carolinian has for Timeshare , im shocked at the slating being sent in his / her direction on this forum . TATOC , is funded by the resorts it protects , if that includes Spice / Aroma , then you make your bed as the saying goes , that incudes Silverpoint.
Having said this i supose its my turn for the ill comment ?


Carolinian has been asked, in various manners, to produce proof of current activities that TATOC can act upon.
The simple fact is that, sadly, he has not delivered that proof.
He has seemed to deliver on "past performance" activities by pointing to various sources, unfortunately TATOC cannot act on past performance.
It can only place sanctions on affiliates who are proved to be currently engaged in negative consumer activities that break the TATOC code of conduct.
This is the present position and agreed TATOC policy.
  I am sorry that it is just a repeat of what has already been stated.
 

eneri

Quote from: eneri on December 29, 2012, 00:18:30
Quote from: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 23:56:07
Quote from: eneri on December 28, 2012, 23:13:17
Since I'm not really sure where you are going with this I'd rather you just explained yourself and also gave an answer to my original question.
PS. I didn't think I was kicking off but my clumsy attempt at jokingly quoting you has obviously backfired!

Your pretence of failure to understand is funny- not hilarious- but nevertheless funny.

*psst. The word you were scratching around for above was give not gave.

Regards  Tomeluk
 


And your attempt to pick up on grammatical errors instead of answering simple questions is likewise.

Gawd, talk about pulling teeth!

Goodnight. I'll get back over the week-end.


Mavo
Since you haven't come back with an answer to my original question and following your comments on various posts, I'll assume that you are refering to me as one of "the nest of vipers". If my assumption is correct would you show where anything I've written about timeshare either on this forum or elsewhere could prove I was involved in a conspiracy or even single-handedly "trying to destroy timeshare" or admit you were wrong and we can all move on.
 

Carolinian

The silence is still deafening on Silverpoint, which another poster brought up.  We're waiting to hear from you Harry and Mavo.

Another proactive way to defeat these points clubs is what Outer Banks Beach Club I and II in North Carolina did.  They sued the Peppertree / Equivest points club and obtained a court order that the individual owners who owned the underlying weeks at the resorts, NOT the points club had the votes at their AGM.

Of course, the Stouts Hill method is quicker and cheaper to deal appropriately with them. 

These points clubs are a threat to member control of resort boards and they need to be checkmated.  TATOC seems to be asleep at the switch.
 

Mavo

Quote from: eneri on January 02, 2013, 00:32:12
Quote from: eneri on December 29, 2012, 00:18:30
Quote from: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 23:56:07
Quote from: eneri on December 28, 2012, 23:13:17
Since I'm not really sure where you are going with this I'd rather you just explained yourself and also gave an answer to my original question.
PS. I didn't think I was kicking off but my clumsy attempt at jokingly quoting you has obviously backfired!

Your pretence of failure to understand is funny- not hilarious- but nevertheless funny.

*psst. The word you were scratching around for above was give not gave.

Regards  Tomeluk
 


And your attempt to pick up on grammatical errors instead of answering simple questions is likewise.

Gawd, talk about pulling teeth!

Goodnight. I'll get back over the week-end.


Mavo
Since you haven't come back with an answer to my original question and following your comments on various posts, I'll assume that you are refering to me as one of "the nest of vipers". If my assumption is correct would you show where anything I've written about timeshare either on this forum or elsewhere could prove I was involved in a conspiracy or even single-handedly "trying to destroy timeshare" or admit you were wrong and we can all move on.


Of course I have not come back with an answer for you.
You sit in whatever corner you see yourself in.



Mavo

Carolinian says that "a leopard cannot change its spots"

Do you think Carolinian, that TATOC would be allowed to use that in an argument or indeed in an enquiry into the current conduct of one or more of its affiliates?
Do you also really expect any TATOC activities centred around enquiries into the activities of any affiliate to be made public knowledge?

Harry has already stated that last year one company was removed from being affiliated.
Did you know about it at the time?
Was it made public during the TATOC enquiries or the subsequent findings and removal?

The answers to all the above should be NO and the reasons should be equally as obvious.

Carolinian

Was that one other company a developer or some other timeshare-related entity?

I think if a ''Goldfinger'' Palmer shows up and says he is straight now, and wants to sign TATOC's pledge, then TATOC has a duty to the timeshare members to remember what he has done in the past and not put their seal of approval on his new operation to give it credibility.


Quote from: Mavo on January 02, 2013, 13:09:15
Carolinian says that "a leopard cannot change its spots"

Do you think Carolinian, that TATOC would be allowed to use that in an argument or indeed in an enquiry into the current conduct of one or more of its affiliates?
Do you also really expect any TATOC activities centred around enquiries into the activities of any affiliate to be made public knowledge?

Harry has already stated that last year one company was removed from being affiliated.
Did you know about it at the time?
Was it made public during the TATOC enquiries or the subsequent findings and removal?

The answers to all the above should be NO and the reasons should be equally as obvious.
 

eneri

Quote from: Mavo on January 02, 2013, 12:51:49
Quote from: eneri on January 02, 2013, 00:32:12
Quote from: eneri on December 29, 2012, 00:18:30
Quote from: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 23:56:07
Quote from: eneri on December 28, 2012, 23:13:17
Since I'm not really sure where you are going with this I'd rather you just explained yourself and also gave an answer to my original question.
PS. I didn't think I was kicking off but my clumsy attempt at jokingly quoting you has obviously backfired!

Your pretence of failure to understand is funny- not hilarious- but nevertheless funny.

*psst. The word you were scratching around for above was give not gave.

Regards  Tomeluk
 


And your attempt to pick up on grammatical errors instead of answering simple questions is likewise.

Gawd, talk about pulling teeth!

Goodnight. I'll get back over the week-end.


Mavo
Since you haven't come back with an answer to my original question and following your comments on various posts, I'll assume that you are refering to me as one of "the nest of vipers". If my assumption is correct would you show where anything I've written about timeshare either on this forum or elsewhere could prove I was involved in a conspiracy or even single-handedly "trying to destroy timeshare" or admit you were wrong and we can all move on.


Of course I have not come back with an answer for you.
You sit in whatever corner you see yourself in.




So you don't have an answer. Fair do's!
Don't know where I'll sit. Hopefully well clear of any future mud slinging!
 

peachie

Mud slinging or reading in between the lines , either way i have mentioned many times about advert banners on here  from companies being condoned as scammers , as i get the usual answers , This forum sometimes seems to be designed for the industry and not for the people using the industry ........... Did i say that right ?

eneri

Don't think so peachie. I am in broad agreement with you about "advert banners" and said many moons ago that that is probably the only thing we agree on. However, I'm not sure why you are bringing it up on this thread.  If you read everything on here you will see that this forum allows everyone to air their views no matter which side of the industry they are on. Think it's known as free speech.
 

Carolinian

Well, the silence remains deafening from Harry and Mavo.

Care to give us your views on Silverpointe?

The other poster who first raised the issue of TATOC's integrity mentioned TWO of its affiliates, Silverpoint and Spice / Aroma.  Harry, however, focuses this thread on just one of them and on me, when I merely agreed with that poster.  I have specifically asked him about Silverpointe and get no response.

Silverpoint is a European company, and from posts on these boards from those who have dealt with it, is currently up to shananigans here in Europe.  Yet all we here from Harry and Mavo on them is crickets.

The Bullfrog and his operations are indeed a bit trickier, given TATOC's narrowing what they will consider.  They only want info after they signed TATOC's  standards, but don't even bother to tell us when that was, and only from their European operation.  Never mind what they have done in South Africa!

Flexi-Club in Europe has never been much of a sales success, and they do not have a big enough footprint in the industry to start taking over and crashing resorts by themselves.  They couldn't whether they wanted to or not.  Add Spice / Aroma, with the ''exit program'' twist, and who knows, they may ultimately get into that position, working together to be such a threat.  But that is what the Bullfrog has used his points clubs in South Africa for.  If TATOC wanted to protect its members, they ought to be warned about letting these guys onto their property to sell.

The other thing that the Bullfrog has been noted for in South Africa is stampeding members from one of his points clubs to another for a big ''conversion fee''.  Until recently, he only had one points club in Europe so that was not a posibility.  With Spice / Aroma now on the scene, that dynamic has changed.  Will he be up to his old South African tricks in Europe and how soon?  Perhaps the member representatives of Flexi-Club Europe ought to be warned to be on their guard?

Finally, Harry says he wants to'' investigate'' the Bullfrog (but apparently NOT Silverpointe).  If he were serious and sincere about that, he would have PM'ed me privately to ask for assistance, not started this ''in your face'' thread.  Among other things, when you are going to do an invesigation on someone, you hardly do that by announcing it in public and tipping them off.  If he had approached this in a sincere manner, I would have not hesitated to provide what help I could.

 

Carolinian


Here is one reporter that any investigation ought to talk with, from the Johannisburg Star newspaper.  This is in one of those post where Harry gave the date but not the link.  Perhaps this reporter ought to update by checking out what this crowd has done with those resorts listed in the other posts that Harry did not give the links to, many with links to other timeshare sites about what was going on.  I think that might make an interesting sequel to this article!


July 8 2006

SATURDAY STAR - JOHANNESBURG, SOUTH AFRICA

Travel clubs rocked by claims of deceit

Clients accuse timeshare giants of swindling millions from them, writes Sheena Adams

Sheena Adams

Lies and misinformation are among the scandalous claims levelled against timeshare giants Flexi-Club and the Club Leisure Group, accused of swindling tens of millions of rands from clients.
The matter has been investigated by the Department of Trade and Industry, and CLG is currently the subject of a second investigation by the South African Revenue Service.
Unhappy clients from Flexi-Club and Club Resorts International (CRI), both of which are managed by a CLG subsidiary, have also amassed scores of written complaints and signed affidavits placing serious allegations at the feet of Flexi-Club managing director and CLG chairperson Stuart Lamont. Lamont has distanced himself and his companies from the allegations.
At the heart of the matter is the claim that Lamont helped to engineer a deal in 2000 whereby a management company, Club Leisure Management (CLM), was formed together with the Southern African arm of global timeshare leader RCI (Resorts Condominium International).
In the same year, RCI also purchased CRI Operations, the company with the management contract to administer CRI Club, a popular, points-based timeshare concept.
S'bu Mngadi, managing director of RCI's Global Vacation Network for Africa, told the Saturday Star this week that RCI soon afterwards sold CRI Operations to CLM. RCI and Flexi-Club continued to own CLM, with RCI as a minority shareholder, according to Mngadi. CLM then took over the management of the CRI club.
According to information received from several clients, former CRI consultants and a former director of the CRI Management Association (CRIMA), Lamont embarked on an aggressive marketing drive in 2002 aimed at converting CRI clients to Flexi-Club.
Clients allege, many of them in signed affidavits, that "arrogant and aggressive" Flexi-Club consultants began contacting them, spinning a yarn that CRI was in financial difficulty, that it had been bought over by Flexi Club and that clients had no option but to buy into Flexi-Club. In order to do this, clients had to purchase Flexi Club points, at an average cost of about R5 000.
Johannesburg businessman Bruce Phillips said he forfeited R30 000 in levies and many thousands more in legal fees after he was forced to hire an attorney to extricate himself from his timeshare contract.
A CRI client for many years, Phillips said he became disillusioned with constant problems trying to secure availability at his preferred resorts. The last straw came a few years ago when he was phoned "non-stop" by a Flexi-Club consultant, trying to convince him to convert his points.
"They never stopped phoning - at night, during the day and over weekends. They wanted me to convert my points to another scam and made all sorts of overtures about CRI going under and being taken over by Flexi-Club," an angry Phillips said.
According to figures announced at a CRIMA meeting last year, CRI had fewer than 10 000 members, a loss of more than 25 000 members. Members were told that 13 300 CRI members were converted to Flexi-Club during the past three years.
A former CRIMA director, who asked not to be named, said the CRIMA board of directors, along with the directors of CRI Operations, should be held accountable for "this in-house type of incestuous breeding".
"They are supposed to protect and promote the CRI points system and yet they have allowed consultants to actively convert people over to Flexi-Club. They knowingly permitted the conversions �
"You can't have different brand names under the same roof if you've got the one screwing the other," he said.
"It makes commercial sense if you can get R5 000 out of a whole list of people. If you convert 10 000 people, you've got R50-million," he added.
Responding to the allegations, Lamont denied that Flexi-Club consultants were behind the strong-arm tactics and instead blamed independent marketing firms. He said he would be very interested in investigating the claims. He said Flexi-Club was "very, very fussy" about conversions and that they were not entered into unless the person was made "fully aware of all the details".
He also claimed that several CRI members had complained about deteriorating rooms and resorts and had requested changing over to Flexi-Club.
"CRI is still strong and it's still operating. It is not insolvent and there is nothing wrong with it," Lamont said - but CRI clients canvassed by the Saturday Star slammed Lamont's comments.
Dorothy Higgins, of Johannesburg, was offered to convert at the "special price" of R3 300 and was contacted by consultants claiming to represent CRI.
"They tell you they are phoning from CRI, and then when you meet them, they say they are actually from Club Leisure Management and they are representing Flexi-Club.
"They'd say that CRI was definitely going under," Higgins said.
The comments coincide with a warning issued this week by credit information ombudsman Manie van Schalkwyk about "aggressive timeshare salespeople".
Van Schalkwyk said his office had seen an upswing in the number of consumers being blacklisted for timeshare purchases and warned people to "read the fine print" and not be bullied by aggressive sales tactics and "partial truths".
He added that although there was currently no legislative power over the timeshare industry, the Timeshare Institute of SA (TISA) was mandated to deal with complaints.
The acting executive director of TISA, Alex Bosch, who is also a director at CLM, said TISA was aware of the allegations and had referred the complaints to the Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) in 2002. As far as TISA was concerned, there was "no merit in certain of the allegations".
Ebrahim Mohamed, chief director of the office of consumer protection at the department, said the department's investigation had revealed that the manner in which certain Flexi-Club agents were approaching CRI members was "indeed problematic".
"It was then agreed between the DTI and Flexi-Club that changes had to be effected with immediate effect.
"Flexi-Club agents had to explain to converting members that CRI was not in liquidation," Ebrahim said.
Sources have confirmed that an investigation into the Club Leisure Group has also been launched by the SA Revenue Service. The Competition Commission is also keen to look into the matter, according to its enforcement and exemptions manager, Thulani Kunene.
The operations manager at CLM, Peter Snyman, also responding on behalf of Lamont, said permission to market Flexi-Club to CRI members was obtained from the former CRI board because members were struggling to "receive holidays as a result of the exceedingly poor mixture and availability of timeshare properties in their property portfolio".
He said the conversion fees were necessary in order to enable CRI members to become Flexi-Club members.
"We do not condone any bullying behaviour with potential clients. Staff are trained to show potential members the benefits of joining Flexi-Club, and members are � required to make up their own minds."








 

Mavo

A most interesting post from 8th July 2006

Unfortunately it does not appear to have any bearing on January 2013



Carolinian

Actually, that is the date of the newspaper article that is quoted, not the post.

So you believe that the leopard can change his spots, and undoubtedly would welcome John ''Goldfinger'' Palmer into TATOC, in spite of his history, if he would promise that now he would swear by the TATOC code and be a good boy in the future!

. . . and you still haven't replied about Silverpoint.  What is your excuse there?


Quote from: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 19:25:18
A most interesting post from 8th July 2006

Unfortunately it does not appear to have any bearing on January 2013

 

Boss Man

Quote from: peachie on January 03, 2013, 18:15:15
Mud slinging or reading in between the lines , either way i have mentioned many times about advert banners on here  from companies being condoned as scammers , as i get the usual answers , This forum sometimes seems to be designed for the industry and not for the people using the industry ........... Did i say that right ?


Peachie,

Just for your sake and the others, the majority of the banners are delivered by Google. I have a limited amount of control over who gets shown on the site, but this can only be done if I am made aware of advertisers.

Please don't bring the integrity of the site itself into this discussion.

And I assure you, this site was designed solely for owners and users of Timeshares and Fractional products, not for the industry itself. I have always prided myself on this fact. I have nothing to do with the industry itself, I am an owner. I created the site as a mutual discussion point for Timeshare owners as at the time ( 2004 ), there was nothing else

Read the first line on the front page -

"Welcome to Timesharetalk. Timesharetalk is Europe's largest Timeshare forum on the internet run by timeshare owners, for Timeshare owners. We cover all aspects of Timeshare from the good through to the bad. "

This has always been and always will be our moto.



Mavo

Quote from: Carolinian on January 09, 2013, 19:31:33
Actually, that is the date of the newspaper article that is quoted, not the post.

So you believe that the leopard can change his spots, and undoubtedly would welcome John ''Goldfinger'' Palmer into TATOC, in spite of his history, if he would promise that now he would swear by the TATOC code and be a good boy in the future!

. . . and you still haven't replied about Silverpoint.  What is your excuse there?


Quote from: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 19:25:18
A most interesting post from 8th July 2006

Unfortunately it does not appear to have any bearing on January 2013




Apologies I should have said a most interesting post from a News Article dated 8th July 2006 but I credit readers with the intelligence to realise that the post was relaying six and a half year old news.
With ref to your other post I will answer it in the very first paragraph below.


First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.

It is very easy for individuals to come on here anonymously, or go elsewhere and post allegations against others. There is no legal redress against them as more often than not they cannot be traced.

Carolinian says in his post of 8th Jan 2013 above:
Finally, Harry says he wants to'' investigate'' the Bullfrog (but apparently NOT Silverpointe).  If he were serious and sincere about that, he would have PM'ed me privately to ask for assistance, not started this ''in your face'' thread.  Among other things, when you are going to do an invesigation on someone, you hardly do that by announcing it in public and tipping them off.  If he had approached this in a sincere manner, I would have not hesitated to provide what help I could.

Harry Taylor started this thread with a post which contained the following:

Obviously for TATOC to advance a study into any affiliated company we need to have some form of proof that improprieties are currently taking place, or have taken place in the recent past during their affiliation to TATOC.
It would be unprofessional of us as an organisation with a growing stature to conduct such a study were it to be built on conjecture and rumour. Therefore would you please be so kind as to furnish TATOC with any such documented proof that you may have.
Harry Taylor


Fairly simple to comply with I would have thought. Unfortunately Carolinian has not been so kind as to assist, in fact far from it.
Harry Taylor has sent Carolinian 2 private messages on timesharetalk Carolinian has not responded or replied to either of them.

Harry Taylor has invited, at any time, a couple of the sceptics to see how TATOC works and how it is structured. One has so far declined the opportunity, one has not commented.

From my personal point of view I see it to be a great opportunity for someone to take up this offer from Harry.

If we cannot convince the sceptics by showing them TATOC at work then we must accept that we will never convince them by posting on forums. What will then happen is that TATOC will simply ignore those trying to flame the only credible timeshare consumer organisation there is out there.

Carolinian

First of all, Mavo, I am not trying to ''flame'' TATOC.  Harry started this thread, not me, and in the thread he referred to, I did not make the comment he objected to, but merely agreed with the part as to these two companies.  Unlike you, I have served as a president of the HOA board of a member-controlled timeshare resort, so I appreciate the need for well focused organizations that represent them.  I applaud TATOC's mission, but I think it may have gotten a bit off track by associating with some questionable developers.  IMHO TATOC is an organization that has a lot of potential and I would love to see it reach that potential. 

Secondly, I did reply to Harry's first PM, and told him that I did not believe he was serious or sincere for the same reasons I gave in an earlier post. Posting this thread as his opening gambit rather than PM'ing me was a dead giveaway that he was not serious. His second PM was more to blast me, so I saw no purpose in responding to that.

You claim that TATOC cannot comment about its inquiries into companies that it associates itself with.  If that is so, how can you explain Harry starting this public thread to comment on this one?  Odd, isn't it?  That is one of the very reasons that I do not take this ''investigation'' of the Bullfrog seriously.  What is the REAL gambit here?

As to the previous history of people in timeshare, I guess if John ''Goldfinger'' Palmer gets back in it, then we are supposed to forget his history, which is even older than 6 years.  And that dude who ran the Basil Jones Resort scam in Belize (I don't think anyone knows what his real name is, but he is a Brit), I guess if he resurfaces and starts developing another resort, we should just forget his history in Belize?  He has actually been tentatively identified as doing a similar scam elsewhere in the world using another name prior to Belize.  Too bad all the suckers who lost their money in Belize were not aware of that history before parting with their money.  How can you rationally suggest that people bury their heads in the sand and forget the prior histories - good or bad - of developers?

What I have posted above is an article from a major newspaper in South Africa, the native habitat of The Bullfrog, not an anonymous post on a blog.

And finally, Mavo, you keep ducking the question about Silverpoint.  Care to finally share your thoughts on that one? 
 

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