Licensing salespeople what a difference this would make!

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Offline Mavo

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We walked into a place for a coffee this lunchtime and there were 3 of these folks from Grand Holidays having a lunch.
 I did not miss the opportunity of course.
  This is what they said.
They are licensed by the authorities and the license is not easy to acquire. They have to go through a process to ensure that they are not scammers. The license then covers the whole of the area -In this instance Adeje. They promoted Grand Holidays who they said were basically a middle man company buying up blocks of apartments in resorts and renting them on to such as Tui, Thomas Cooks etc. They did seem to also fire in prospects to someone called Arrow Leisure who had an office deck under La Nina. I assume they got a referral amount for this and a bigger amount if a sale went through. They did say that the Las Vistas Marketing/Realistix Solutions running from the rooftop of La Pinta had been closed down last year.
I did walk into the office of Arrow Leisure and ask them if they were timeshare or holiday club but they seemed to be a little shocked and evasive to be asked direct questions so I suspect that they may be a holiday club as their setup seemed to have "presentation" written all over it.

 Stranger than strange but then again perhaps not.
 We allowed 2 ladies from this Grand Holidays gang to approach us. Their story seemed to be slightly at odds with the story from the other 3 yesterday. These said that they were promoting tourism in the Adeje area and all the local bars and restaurants were involved. We went along with this willingly and we were asked to answer some questions on the back of a scratchcard. After 2 failed attempts through her nerves our OPC finally managed to produce for us - Go on I`ll let you guess. Yes you got it right! The top prize and we were to be taken somewhere to receive this.
 At this point it got no further as I was in fits of laughter. I told them a little of what I was about and they magically disappeared. We returned about an hour later and they had still not reappeared although others were still evident outside the La Nina complex.
 It is very easy to tell when they are telling lies. Their lips move.  They are, I accept, professionals at it with off pat answers to everything.

Their card when eventually pried open says:
"This promotion is designed to promote tourism in Adeje, Tenerife. Our invitation gives you the opportunity to visit our resort and experience our facilities. 100% No cost or obligation."
tomeluk


Offline charlie1

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Good work  :D

It must have been nerves were you dressed in your old devils attire?

They usually have on the bottom half of the pack non winners if you dont fit the criteria to sit a timeshare presentation, winners are usually on the top.

Shame you missed out on your '90 minute'  ;D presentation to pick up your discount vouchers (that you usually got to spend a fortune to get a little back). This could have included a bottle of wine for heavens sake! 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 13:20:27 by charlie1 »
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Offline Mavo

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Good work  :D

It must have been nerves were you dressed in your old devils attire?

They usually have on the bottom half of the pack non winners if you dont fit the criteria to sit a timeshare presentation, winners are usually on the top.

Shame you missed out on your '90 minute'  ;D presentation to pick up your discount vouchers (that you usually got to spend a fortune to get a little back). This could have included a bottle of wine for heavens sake!

She was shaking like a good un. Thinking she was going to get us on a promo.
Oh! I did retain a card winning a bottle of wine which she said I could redeem in any of the local bars. I think I may give it a miss though.  ;D
 
tomeluk

Offline charlie1

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So relating to question 5

5) Licensing How do you see this being funded?

If the Government does not get involved then in my opinion there will have to be a bigger focus on Selling Timeshare Companies contributing to this according to the size of the resort based on all weeks that receive a maintenance payment.

The simplest way is to provide an online tutorial service that would be free to participating salespeople. The actual test should be sat at an Independent venue that will raise a fee to sit the exam. Eventually there would be different online courses all requiring fees to sit the exam. The exam fee would be paid by either the salesperson or the resort at the start of the course.

None resort timeshare selling people who qualify will pay a set registration fee and a fee to sit the exam.

Those individuals breaching rules and regulations would be fined or expelled. The Timeshare Companies responsible for their salesperson would also be fined depending on the severity of the case.

Once the first Timeshare Company signs up to this and increases their business then more selling operations will see the benefit of getting involved as consumer confidence grows and they see consumers searching out the Licensed Timeshare Companies.

If this was TATOC or RDO I would like them to reduce or stop the sponsorship or fees paid by the Developer to the management Licensing Company if there an existing member. Now the timeshare Company is paying for a more valuable service that will gradually play a big part in moving this Industry forward.

Has anyone any other thoughts on how this could be funded?
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Offline martyboy02

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Any body overseeing the Licences has to be 100℅ independent of the industry.

As I have previously stated, like you have repeated, Developers Operating Licences will be based on Number of weeks available (Maximum availability), or Points, Holiday membership sold, so costs of Licence would be on a sliding scale.

All agents, directors and others will have to pass an exam (Written and oral, and practical paperwork completion exercise) demonstrating an in depth knowledge of EU Timeshare Legislation, National and Local Trading laws and regulations. Once all elements have been successfully completed and the required standard achieved a Licence would be granted and then the successful candidates would pay a registration fee, they would then be allowed into the public domain. The registration fee would be paid annually. If any major changes in legislation occur further/continuation training would have to be undertaken. If you don't achieve the required standard you name is removed from the register your licence revoked.

Exams would be sat locally, for the crooked elements would find a way around distance computer based learning! (Cynical or what)


Those presently selling would be required to obtain a Licence and register within a set time frame. NO Grandfather rights (As I refer to them).

With regard to the earlier post stating that some street rats already have licences, and they are not easy to obtain, please enlighten us on what they have to do to obtain these licences.

With regard to the scratch card antics of The Grand Holidays, why did you not report this incident to the authorities, you have defended the industry you care for so much and yet you let these people continue to breach current EU law and keep the timeshare reputation in the gutter. As a senior member of TATOC is there not more of an obligation on to to act with your knowledge, experience and credibility?

He said, she said and the truth are valid points raised. When promises are made verbally and no written or physical evidence is available the Moroov Doctrine should be applied ( As presently in the headlines of UK news, DLT, William Roach, etc, although these are sexual offences, the principle could still apply). And the biggest element you missed is What does the Law State, remembering that EU law over rides or has precedence over Member States law.
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Offline charlie1

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Hi Martyboy

This is all just an overview. However in my opinion learning online is the only cost effective way to train timeshare sales people across Europe.

Just a little more meat on the bone I think I have mentioned either on this thread or another that tests would be taken at an Independent office. So it does not matter who takes the course online but the registered salesperson would have to attend at a designated place with proof of identity. It could only be an appointed Independent Company that would be vigilating the exam.

We had an arm wrestle in Financial Services and it was agreed there could not be any Grandfathering. I was the top UK manager for a Company that had 125 offices at one stage but I still had to sit the exams.

I am aware that Mavo was told that the Licenses were difficult to obtain by the OPCs but I would not look into this to much as this is just what he reported he was told. It must be remembered that Mavo is on holiday. If there were any hard facts to report than this could be done once home, but in all seriousness just based on what was said in the post I doubt if any authority there would give it the time of day.

I did not think that I missed out anything at all " And the biggest element you missed is "What does the Law State, remembering that EU law over rides or has precedence over Member States law".

Anyone in Authority would be acting within the Law governing whatever type of criminal activity took place. 

Keep up the posts though as you have made some good contributions.

There needs to be a plan B if a Governing agency for the time being does not want to get involved. I would suggest that if TATOC or RDO took this up then there should be an Independent panel involved who are not associated with either who play a part in the creation of Licensing and have a vote regarding policy on Licensing.

This would assist any concerns that consumers might have that policy would be decided largely in favour of the Developers. Just a thought. However it must be a License thats initially introduced that allows the selling resorts to adapt. It must be workable as the Licensing evolves to achieve its end goals.


« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 02:05:26 by charlie1 »
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Offline Mavo

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Unfortunately Charlie 1, Martyboy seems to feel the need to read into my posts things that are not necessarily there, and you of course are quite right in that I reported what was said to me in both conversations with different members of the team. I did not, of course, say that the licence was difficult to obtain, they did. They and not I  said the licence was issued by the authorities. Which authorities I have no idea and have no intention of personally spending my precious holidays tramping around the island to find out. It was not a "job and finish exercise" but it does raise possibilities for the future with regards to work which could or may be undertaken by the newly forming Taskforce.
 Regarding my position on TATOC. I would not as a director of TATOC go around abroad making and taking unilateral decisions and of course I say again that TATOC conducts the majority of its business in the strictest of confidence and anything it ever wishes to impart to consumers and its members can be found on its website. http://www.tatoc.co.uk/   
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Offline martyboy02

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Mavo

I am not expecting you or anyone else whilst on holiday to run around the island asking you to research what is required for a licence to to obtained, that would be totally unreasonable on my part.

What I was getting at was did THEY say who in particular issued the licence and did they say how they obtained the licence. If they didn't a simple "They didn't go into any great detail" will suffice.

You as much as anyone else know that a lot of these people are so full of c""p that thier eyes are turning brown, perhaps they were selling a red herring.

The reps from Grand Holidays were breaking the law, why did you not report this?

I fully appreciate that you don't wish to disclose the daily going ons in TATOC, but you can still act as a private citizen with regard to law breaking. If you choose to turn a blind eye to it that is your choice. Enough said.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           

RDO and TATOC could have no part in Plan A, B or C in deciding policy as they are too aligned to developers, anyone overseeing Licences and Registration has to be indipendent. They may offer advice, which would be most welcome, but like all advice it does not have to be acted upon.
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Offline Mavo

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Mavo

I am not expecting you or anyone else whilst on holiday to run around the island asking you to research what is required for a licence to to obtained, that would be totally unreasonable on my part.

What I was getting at was did THEY say who in particular issued the licence and did they say how they obtained the licence. If they didn't a simple "They didn't go into any great detail" will suffice.

You as much as anyone else know that a lot of these people are so full of c""p that thier eyes are turning brown, perhaps they were selling a red herring.

The reps from Grand Holidays were breaking the law, why did you not report this?

I fully appreciate that you don't wish to disclose the daily going ons in TATOC, but you can still act as a private citizen with regard to law breaking. If you choose to turn a blind eye to it that is your choice. Enough said.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           

RDO and TATOC could have no part in Plan A, B or C in deciding policy as they are too aligned to developers, anyone overseeing Licences and Registration has to be indipendent. They may offer advice, which would be most welcome, but like all advice it does not have to be acted upon.


Martyboy.

 I quoted in full what was discussed with me regarding the licenses they were wearing. You assume that there was further details made available to me.
 You also assume that I have not taken the matter further.
You also assume that TATOC are too aligned with developers.
 You have (at your request) been availed of the opportunity to find out about TATOC and its workings and I even got you an invite to join as an individual member despite the fact that you no longer own timeshare products.
 Why do you not avail yourself of these opportunities in order that you could then speak with knowledge?
This would surely prevent you from making assumptions based on your bias knowledge built on the mistrust of the industry in general coming about via your bitter experience with one developer who, interestingly enough, is not and never has been affiliated to TATOC.
 
tomeluk

Offline martyboy02

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Mavo calm down you are going to burst a blood vessel.

All I was wondering was what they had to do to get these licences and who awarded them, if they didn't say that's fine, like I said I am not expecting you or others to waste holiday time finding out.

If you have taken the reporting unlawful practices further why not say so?

I shall do some research into TATOC with regard to where their major funding comes from and their core mission statement.

And finally for the final time I KNOW AND HAVE NEVER STATED THAT THE DEVELOPER WAS PART OF TATOC.

Now can we please keep to the thread, I am becoming extremely bored with your assumptions, personal attacks and trolling, needless to say you will continue with your utopian view of the industry savaging those of us who want consumer protection and to debate and ask questions in a reasonable manner.
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Offline Mavo

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Mavo calm down you are going to burst a blood vessel.

All I was wondering was what they had to do to get these licences and who awarded them, if they didn't say that's fine, like I said I am not expecting you or others to waste holiday time finding out.

If you have taken the reporting unlawful practices further why not say so?

I shall do some research into TATOC with regard to where their major funding comes from and their core mission statement.

And finally for the final time I KNOW AND HAVE NEVER STATED THAT THE DEVELOPER WAS PART OF TATOC.

Now can we please keep to the thread, I am becoming extremely bored with your assumptions, personal attacks and trolling, needless to say you will continue with your utopian view of the industry savaging those of us who want consumer protection and to debate and ask questions in a reasonable manner.

Martyboy.
 I am not bursting blood vessels. I simply do things my way. We have to accept that my way may not be your way or the way of others. You all have the opportunity to get involved and do things your way but if you are not prepared to do so then please do not try to dictate to me how I chose to conduct myself.

And finally for the final last time I KNOW AND HAVE NEVER STATED THAT THE DEVELOPER WAS PART OF TATOC.

I have never said you had. I simply responded to your words which were as follows:

TATOC could have no part in Plan A, B or C in deciding policy as they are too aligned to developers.

How do you know that TATOC are as you say when you have never taken time out to establish this despite constant invites?

 Again as I say - You are just full of assumptions derived from lack of knowledge.
  It`s simple really. Get clued up!


tomeluk

Offline charlie1

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And now back to the thread and lets try to keep to it  :-X

Licensing monitoring and auditing the Timeshare Companies


Having a process for this and the resource to use an Independent body is a whole new ball game.

For a start no timeshare company will be happy with having their sales process reviewed and their own internal compliance system vetted.

Certainly we did not when it was first launched in Financial Services it was embraced with open arms and a fear of the unknown. We had annual compliance visits from a company that in turn reported into Government agencies.

Before a visit there would be a series of questions that were asked of the resort regarding our systems to support the consumer and vet current sales. There would also be an overview of our process to respond to a consumer complaint and how this would be finalized.

I always made sure I had my prettiest secretary to greet the compliance team with the best tea and coffee that money could buy. We did all the normal things that everyone does on such an occasion everything was stepped up and tightened prior to the visit.  :D

The senior personal involved in internal branch compliance all had ‘meetings’ and were asked to run through their systems and how they dealt with consumer issues.

I would have a lunch meeting that was pretty pleasant with an update of any current concerns they had so far during their visit. They would then request around 20 client files of their choosing that would be new clients or old. They would then disappear for several hours and then come back with some questions to the internal branch admin team. They would then ask to see a couple of managers and consultants new and experienced and the sales trainer all meetings were done separately.

If a branch was found in breach of the rules they were assisted on how to get this right. Especially in the early days of licensing, there was also a support line as back up to help move towards getting this right for the branch office. However if you ignored this there would be a follow up visit usually 3-4 months later.

This could result in a branch in my day being fined or if very serious suspended from trading until it was put right.

What we found was it was far easier to have our own compliance officer in the branch so that when the compliance team came in for a visit we were ahead of the game. We had always had fact finds with our clients and got them to sign at the bottom of each page.  These were above licensing requirements.

If we got all this right then it came down to the following to get the business and growth up.

In the end it boiled down to getting a better understanding of what consumers want and need. The better we got at that the more successful we became.

That’s should be easy in the holiday Industry as who does not want and need holidays. If they were free who would not take a holiday with NO catches! So we would all want a holiday its just getting it right and why timeshare.

We had to put more value into our new contracts and gave people what they wanted. Like break options, (exit strategies like discussed in earlier posts for timeshare contracts) we could not convert or change the old contracts like whole of life, but we could promote new contracts that attracted a whole new generation.

There are three simple rules for change

1) We need to see it as it is but not worse than what it is. We are where we are.

2) Then see it better than it is and thats our vision. No organisation can get better until they admit something is wrong. The problem is no one wants to be seen as doing wrong. So most companies compare themselves with others. We can then say that were doing better than xyz so we can feel good about ourselves and move on.

The answer is for Companies to set their own standards. If there does not seem a way than you make a way! That standard is not a should it’s a MUST!

3) Make it the way that you see it. That’s your company’s vision.
Get resourceful find a way. Ask questions how is our sales strategy really, how is our product really and could we improve on this. Do we really communicate and connect to our members really. If not find a way and change what your doing! There’s always a solution even if it has to be applied in stages

Problems and progress go hand in hand.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 17:01:48 by charlie1 »
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Offline martyboy02

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Like you say compliance, is a must especially with the regard to the law.

 Timeshare, holiday clubs have been self regulating and it hasn't worked, some not all are still continuely breaking the law. When these break the law and get caught they drag the whole industry into disrepute.

Until there is licencing and an Ombudsmen or other body to ENFORCE current legislation the industry may not be able to move forward with public confidence.
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Offline Mavo

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If we recognise that this thread will be read with interest by some who will be manoeuvering for positions of influence on any future steering group looking into licensing then we must accept that some ideas will be dismissed and some accepted. What any group involved in this have to ensure is that there will be no watering down of the processes required to obtain licenses. We have seen from the past that self regulation cannot work in this industry or any other industry where finance is king.
 

 This initiative is on the agenda, commissioned by RDO, so we must hope that they have come to recognise the need for further systems that will restore and retain the credibility of Timeshare. We all know the dangers of creating a weak system that can be manipulated by Reps/Consultants who are mentally unable to recognise that cutting out their mis selling and misleading practices will ultimately benefit them as consumers regain confidence in the product thus making it easier to sell.

 The simple truth is that given workable Exit Strategies and Licensing of selling the product becomes emminently saleable once more and good quality products are easy to sell.   
tomeluk

Offline martyboy02

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Let the RDO do their study and publish their findings, but let us not forget who they are and how they are funded. No doubt there will be some interesting reccomendations.

Like I keep saying what ever is established must have lawful power to fine, remove licences, remove operator licences and issue improvement notices.

The tail mustn't be allowed to wag the dog!!
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Offline Mavo

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Let the RDO do their study and publish their findings, but let us not forget who they are and how they are funded. No doubt there will be some interesting reccomendations.

Like I keep saying what ever is established must have lawful power to fine, remove licences, remove operator licences and issue improvement notices.

The tail mustn't be allowed to wag the dog!!

 I just cannot understand where your lack of logic comes from Martyboy. Without the will of developers via the RDO these initiatives cannot possibly be put in place. No outside bodies have the ability to enforce such legislation, as is being proposed, on the industry. Change has to willingly come from within.
An industry with its leading players based all around the world is not going to be dictated to by some group or body, government or otherwise, that has suddenly sprung out of nowhere and been hurriedly put together.
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Offline martyboy02

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In the UK are there not industries that can be compelled to obey their relevant ombudsmen.

The same could happen within the EU with the creation of  Timeshare Ombudsmen with support and legislation.

For too long (Way before I got involved) the lack of willingness of companies to obey the law and looking for loop holes have lead us to where we are now.

You may or maynot look at it from the developers perspective but Consumer protection is No1 in my book. If customers can buy with 100% confidence, knowing there is a body to turn if things go wrong, surely that only will improve confidence in the industry, thus increasing sales and securing the industries future.

Perhaps this could be discussed at the TATOC RDO seminar during Conference this year.

Yes it really is as simple as that.
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Offline martyboy02

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Answer me this, who out there has the timeshare holiday club member interest at heart and can compel the industry to toe the line?
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Offline charlie1

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If this is not Government backed and this is likely (but I will test the water a little later). There is nothing in place to force Developers to be apart of this. The only only real reason that some will come to the table is if they see common sense and that this will result in good business for them as the consumer would be advised to sit with only licensed sales people.

It does not matter who has the consumers interest at heart. No one outside of Government can compel a Developer to do anything if its not backed up by legislation.

If this does not have Government backing I would as I see that this would need to be phased in with an agreed end policy. The finance Industry had a settling in period to get their houses in order.

Once this is shown to work the resorts would not wish to see their Licenses taken away as this would certainly not look good in the eyes of the consumer and they would likely see a down turn in business. They would then agree to additional policies as licensing evolves to maintain their License.

The winners here will be the Timeshare Companies that welcome this and get on board first and try to get ahead of this. They will then have the edge on the competition as being the first ones involved.

Ideally we need a pincher type approach to achieve real success thats.

1) Effective Licensing

2) New Contracts with exit strategies.

Timeshare Companies need to change their constitutions to allow new contracts to be marketed to the younger generation. Thats new contracts with break options that may still run to the term of the old contracts, but these would have break options after say the first five years and then with agreed notice every 5 years after that. This will be far better than a temporary try before you buy approach as the new member has to pay more to get involved again. Far better to have a contract of substance over a specific term but is flexible enough to allow me to exit with notice or sell it.

This exit strategy would keep the resorts on their toes as they dont want members leaving!

These contracts will also be far more popular in the resale market. I could buy a new contract with exit strategies because the owner selling it is already 3 years into his contract. So I could purchase a resale contract from the Resale company that has a two year exit option coming up.

I dont believe that a lot of these options will be taken, but its just the security of mind that its there. Take for example the 3 UK resorts I mentioned on another thread that weeks can be handed back either immediately or give 12 month notice too. They don't have members clambering to leave yet they can just leave.

What about the resort in Devon I mentioned that has over 500 personal weeks up for sale from members on their website as the resort wont let them leave and threatens their own members with debt collectors! These two resorts are only around 10 miles apart yet one has over 500 weeks for sale the other very few.

New members come on board quickly with the resort that allows members to hand back there weeks, because they know that if a life challenge comes along they can just either sell it or hand it back.

Surely the benefits are plane to see??? Those resorts who have a queue cant open up the doors as this would jeopardise the financial stability of that resort. However they could create a new contract, as this grows in popularity they could start allowing members to leave who have the old contracts.

In order for continuing positive change to take place everyone that plays a role in timeshare needs to come to the table. Then be asked honest questions of themselves regarding their products and service to the consumer and then see how this could be improved. We are all in this together and its going to be a slow process if this is done in splintered groups.

The Industry must work towards a uniformed approach that has the consumer in mind to ensure that they all have a total holiday experience. Its no use my resorts getting it right and I have happy members but they end up exchanging into a resort that does not reflect the holiday experience my member is used too.

We all have to work at various areas together and some of this is very simple stuff that could make just that little bit of difference. My online training would extend to anyone who has responsibility or contact with the consumer. Everyone counts! From the cleaner upwards as they can all contribute to the consumer having a good feel factor. Sometimes just a friendly smile can make a difference
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 21:52:02 by charlie1 »
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Offline Mavo

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In the UK are there not industries that can be compelled to obey their relevant ombudsmen.

The same could happen within the EU with the creation of  Timeshare Ombudsmen with support and legislation.

For too long (Way before I got involved) the lack of willingness of companies to obey the law and looking for loop holes have lead us to where we are now.

You may or maynot look at it from the developers perspective but Consumer protection is No1 in my book. If customers can buy with 100% confidence, knowing there is a body to turn if things go wrong, surely that only will improve confidence in the industry, thus increasing sales and securing the industries future.

Perhaps this could be discussed at the TATOC RDO seminar during Conference this year.

Yes it really is as simple as that.

Martyboy
The answer to your very first sentence is the very reason that blows you out of the water.
 No there are no industries  in the UK that are compelled to obey any ombusman.
 Energy, Utilities, Banking. Insurance, Telecommunications, Pensions. Do you want me to go on?

Charlie1 You are quite correct to expand on my few short sentences based around the will of the developers. I will just point out that it also needs the will and co operation of developer employees and that will not come about without effective policing and it is no good pretending that an ombusman type setup of old farts will achieve this in an industry such as timeshare, when they have regularly and spectacularly failed so miserably in far easier and insular industries to control. 

 
tomeluk