Timesharetalk

Timeshare Industry => Timeshare Videos => Topic started by: Alan Taylor on November 01, 2012, 10:01:36

Title: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Alan Taylor on November 01, 2012, 10:01:36
Hi,

Just would like to hear your comments on this:

youtube.com/watch?v=qkrdK0shvn4

Alan.
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Willself on November 01, 2012, 10:23:12
Alan.

Sadly its unavailable presently!! :(
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: martyboy02 on November 01, 2012, 11:04:31
Have just watched the video, good work by nam Yuse who ever you are.

Wish I had the same technology when i got Maria Hidalgos confession that Anfi Sales Staff exaggerate.

I realised that the RDO was funded by Timeshare companies, but didn't realise that Board members were actual owners or partners in Timeshare companies. Very educational.

Well done again. More people should do the same, wish I had been one of them.
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Mavo on November 01, 2012, 11:57:30


I realised that the RDO was funded by Timeshare companies, but didn't realise that Board members were actual owners or partners in Timeshare companies. Very educational.



 Of course RDO ( The Resort Development Organisation) is run by timeshare companies and the board consists of people who work within the industry.
  TATOC is the only organisation run by the consumers and the board contains no employees of any timshare company. As an analogy, TATOC has to talk to the RDO in much the same way as Arthur Scargill had to talk to the Coal Board in the seventies. How else are we, as consumers, allowed to have a voice?
  Make no mistake. We at TATOC are in bed with nobody. We are in discussion and dialogue with them and anybody else who we feel can improve the industry on behalf of the consumers.
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Willself on November 01, 2012, 12:33:20
Excellent! MAVO.

Working to-wards a brighter future must be the By-Word!! More Power to  TATOC..and the Consumer!!
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: martyboy02 on November 01, 2012, 14:40:36
I fully appreciate and appauld the work of Mavo and TATOC.

Having conversed with the RDO in the past i know how awkward they can be, I don't envy you and wish you all the best.

Let us hope that TATOC is more resilient, forthwright and succesful as an organisation than the RDO.

I have read the links provided by Mavo (Many thanks) I can have a fair degree of confidence in what TATOC could achieve.

As a general query, could I as a former timeshare owner and as someone who as a lay person still assisiting aggrieved Anfi owners, join TATOC, just to keep up to speed with what is happening and changes to legislation in the Timeshare world?
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Mavo on November 01, 2012, 15:01:45
I fully appreciate and appauld the work of Mavo and TATOC.

Having conversed with the RDO in the past i know how awkward they can be, I don't envy you and wish you all the best.

Let us hope that TATOC is more resilient, forthwright and succesful as an organisation than the RDO.

I have read the links provided by Mavo (Many thanks) I can have a fair degree of confidence in what TATOC could achieve.

As a general query, could I as a former timeshare owner and as someone who as a lay person still assisiting aggrieved Anfi owners, join TATOC, just to keep up to speed with what is happening and changes to legislation in the Timeshare world?





 First indications are that individual membership is currently restricted to timeshare owners.
 However I do understand where you are coming from on this and so I will ask the question.
 It may well be tomorrow before I can get the answer so please bear with me.


You now have your answer and it is in the affirmative
 
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: barca_boy on November 02, 2012, 11:05:12
Absolutely priceless!!!

I'm sure that rp were accredited members of tatoc were they not????

So if we are pointing the finger at the RDO which stands for resort development organisation ( most people would presume they are funded etc by resorts and would make sense why rp would be members) the. Surely tatoc , the organisation that is there to protect consumers is the one that should be under fire for giving a company like silverpoint / rp their backing!!!!!

Let's not throw stones in glass houses!
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Mavo on November 02, 2012, 12:18:49
What this surely proves is that TATOC really is working.

 Resort Properties is no longer I believe.
 Silverpoint has taken over and the practices no longer occur. Silverpoint have also settled most of those who were mis-sold  by RP and they have also signed up to the TATOC code of conduct.
 What TATOC cannot do is to victimise developers for past misdemeanours. We can and do, via the code of conduct try to stamp out future problems.
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: barca_boy on November 02, 2012, 12:45:27
Mavis, my point if you read my post carefully is that RP WERE tatoc accredited, but these practices went on...

As per the video in this thread.

I was merely making the point that we shouldn't blame one industry body and not an other, if indeed we are going to blame anyone.
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Sandy Grey on November 02, 2012, 13:54:57
Mayo.  You are either being disingenuous  or you have been misled.  I suspect the latter.

1.   Silverpoint continued the very same “investment” fraud for which RP  was so rightly castigated.
2.   Silverpoint have, partly, recompensed  a few of those who were defrauded by RP.  The majority of victims have not been recompensed -  which two on-going sets of court cases (UK and Tenerife) demonstrate. 
3.   The Silverpoint sales team is exactly the same team that ran the RP frauds – both lead by  Mark Cushway (temporarily indisposed) who was CEO of both RP and Silverpoint. (leopards & spots !)
4.   TATOC should be well aware that they have been funded by the proceeds of  fraud.  And  that they  continue to be funded by fraud. 
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Mavo on November 02, 2012, 14:49:57
Mavis, my point if you read my post carefully is that RP WERE tatoc accredited, but these practices went on...

As per the video in this thread.

I was merely making the point that we shouldn't blame one industry body and not an other, if indeed we are going to blame anyone.

 Firstly I am not Mavis.
 
 Secondly.   I have conntacted TATOC and asked some questions . As I have stated earlier this first few months will be very much a learning curve for me, not just for what we are trying to achieve in the future but also I need to know a little about the past in order to answer questions such as this.
 From a conversation within the last 90mins my understanding is this.
  The video is a very old one.
 RP were affiliated to TATOC and RDO.
 RDO have no resorts under their wing or in their organisation.
RP were in RDO because they were developers.
  As I understand it RP were hauled over the coals by both RDO and TATOC with regards to the sale of one particular product.
 They were about to be removed from TATOC when a management buyout occurred. The new company, Silverpoint applied to become affiliated with TATOC and they gave assurances that the product causing the difficulties would be removed . It is now no longer sold.
 Silverpoint also gave assurances to TATOC that those with grievances surrounding that product would have their cases looked at personally by Mark Cushway the new CEO of Silverpoint, I do remember Mark Cushway coming onto timesharetalk and stating this. This has occurred and my understanding is that most of those affected have made satisfactory arrangements with Mark Cushway and his organisation and there are a very few only left to come to a similar agreement.
 None of this would have happened had they been outside of TATOC and the product may well have continued to be sold.
It would be oh so easy to remove them and cast them aside to carry on but is it not better to get them to agree to a code of conduct and be within a body where that conduct can be monitored.
 TATOC has the power to remove affiliates who do not abide by that strict code of conduct and that power has already been enforced in 2012.
   
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: barca_boy on November 02, 2012, 16:11:35
Mavo,

I think tatoc are a fantastic organisation and every month they prevent timeshare owners from being scammed. My hat goes off to Harry taylor and the work he and others put in to protect the consumer!

My point was its no good to point the blame solely at the RDO . This wasn't meant to undermine the work and effort of tatoc!!

I have met many tatoc board members and their passion to the cause is a credit to tatoc.

Do not take my post in the wrong way!

I haven't a personal issue with RP or silverpoint and would not suggest they were or were not doing certain things. That is for others to comment
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Mavo on November 02, 2012, 18:23:07
Mavo,

I think tatoc are a fantastic organisation and every month they prevent timeshare owners from being scammed. My hat goes off to Harry taylor and the work he and others put in to protect the consumer!

My point was its no good to point the blame solely at the RDO . This wasn't meant to undermine the work and effort of tatoc!!

I have met many tatoc board members and their passion to the cause is a credit to tatoc.

Do not take my post in the wrong way!

I haven't a personal issue with RP or silverpoint and would not suggest they were or were not doing certain things. That is for others to comment

 I certainly havn`t taken your post the wrong way and I most certainly havn`t pointed any blame at RDO. In my response to you I have pointed out that both RDO and TATOC had felt the need to chastise RP and in fact TATOC were very concerned re  their affiliation before the management takeover.
 At this point I can only ask the questions and reply using the answers I am given.
 If those answers are not what others want to see, or contrary to what they believe then I am sorry but I have to take the TATOC view of events that have occurred in the past.
With regards to Sandy Greys points. Nobody at TATOC is aware of any UK case. Acording to my information the Tenerife case is not ongoing. It was thrown out. Any of the sales team (very few if any is my understanding) that remained after the buyout have been retrained. Mark Cushway remains but the management team that surrounds him are not the same team that were with RP.
 RP/Silverpoint do not fund TATOC as such.
 TATOC funding currently comes from the resort committees and the Timeshare Trust. The committees currently represent 440.000 members and this is growing as more resorts are joining all the time.
 Other revenue is gained from 12 Gold or Platinum affiliated members and a further group currently numbering 26 who hold affiliations. Each affiliated member has to sign up to a strict code of conduct which TATOC can review at any time. This Code of Conduct can be viewed on the TATOC website. The 12 Gold or Platinum members (and it is restricted to 12 ) each have a banner on the website and they are allowed to use the TATOC logo on their literature.
 If TATOC are made aware of any member not adhering to the code of conduct then they will and do investigate and if found to be working outside the code then appropriate action is taken.

Can I take this opportunity to suggest that we all have a look at the TATOC Code of Conduct and if we come across current failures to adhere to that code by any affiliated member then we report it on the TATOC Forum here on timesharetalk. I will then personally see to it that it goes to the appropriate people in TATOC for investigation and I will be pushing hard for answers in fact I will do more than that I will push to be one of the people doing the investigating. This is important for consumers and developers alike as it gives us the consumer better protection from mis selling and it gives the legitimate developer the knowledge that he is competing for business on a level playing field.     
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Alan Taylor on November 02, 2012, 20:02:55
Mavis, my point if you read my post carefully is that RP WERE tatoc accredited, but these practices went on...

As per the video in this thread.

I was merely making the point that we shouldn't blame one industry body and not an other, if indeed we are going to blame anyone.

 Firstly I am not Mavis.
 
 Secondly.   I have conntacted TATOC and asked some questions . As I have stated earlier this first few months will be very much a learning curve for me, not just for what we are trying to achieve in the future but also I need to know a little about the past in order to answer questions such as this.
 From a conversation within the last 90mins my understanding is this.
  The video is a very old one.
 RP were affiliated to TATOC and RDO.
 RDO have no resorts under their wing or in their organisation.
RP were in RDO because they were developers.
  As I understand it RP were hauled over the coals by both RDO and TATOC with regards to the sale of one particular product.
 They were about to be removed from TATOC when a management buyout occurred. The new company, Silverpoint applied to become affiliated with TATOC and they gave assurances that the product causing the difficulties would be removed . It is now no longer sold.
 Silverpoint also gave assurances to TATOC that those with grievances surrounding that product would have their cases looked at personally by Mark Cushway the new CEO of Silverpoint, I do remember Mark Cushway coming onto timesharetalk and stating this. This has occurred and my understanding is that most of those affected have made satisfactory arrangements with Mark Cushway and his organisation and there are a very few only left to come to a similar agreement.
 None of this would have happened had they been outside of TATOC and the product may well have continued to be sold.
It would be oh so easy to remove them and cast them aside to carry on but is it not better to get them to agree to a code of conduct and be within a body where that conduct can be monitored.
 TATOC has the power to remove affiliates who do not abide by that strict code of conduct and that power has already been enforced in 2012.
 


Mavo the video is timestamped september this year
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Mavo on November 02, 2012, 20:26:09
Mavis, my point if you read my post carefully is that RP WERE tatoc accredited, but these practices went on...

As per the video in this thread.

I was merely making the point that we shouldn't blame one industry body and not an other, if indeed we are going to blame anyone.

 Firstly I am not Mavis.
 
 Secondly.   I have conntacted TATOC and asked some questions . As I have stated earlier this first few months will be very much a learning curve for me, not just for what we are trying to achieve in the future but also I need to know a little about the past in order to answer questions such as this.
 From a conversation within the last 90mins my understanding is this.
  The video is a very old one.
 RP were affiliated to TATOC and RDO.
 RDO have no resorts under their wing or in their organisation.
RP were in RDO because they were developers.
  As I understand it RP were hauled over the coals by both RDO and TATOC with regards to the sale of one particular product.
 They were about to be removed from TATOC when a management buyout occurred. The new company, Silverpoint applied to become affiliated with TATOC and they gave assurances that the product causing the difficulties would be removed . It is now no longer sold.
 Silverpoint also gave assurances to TATOC that those with grievances surrounding that product would have their cases looked at personally by Mark Cushway the new CEO of Silverpoint, I do remember Mark Cushway coming onto timesharetalk and stating this. This has occurred and my understanding is that most of those affected have made satisfactory arrangements with Mark Cushway and his organisation and there are a very few only left to come to a similar agreement.
 None of this would have happened had they been outside of TATOC and the product may well have continued to be sold.
It would be oh so easy to remove them and cast them aside to carry on but is it not better to get them to agree to a code of conduct and be within a body where that conduct can be monitored.
 TATOC has the power to remove affiliates who do not abide by that strict code of conduct and that power has already been enforced in 2012.
 


Mavo the video is timestamped september this year

 I am fully aware that the video is timestamped. I am also aware that the conversation on the video is about mis selling by Resort Properties and Resort Properties were no longer in existence in September of this year. My posts remain the same. All the video shows is that a current employee cannot justify the sales tactics of Resort Properties and Mark Cushway  at that time  Nowhere does it say that the tactic continues at Silverpoint.
 It has been suggested that a leopard does not change it`s spots and to that end TATOC closely monitors all its affiliates.
 I will say once more that it is better to have them working within a code of conduct than outside it. If they work within the code and then transgress then we can expell and expose them. If they work outside the code by not being an affiliate then we have no control over their actions.

* FYI Alberto Garcia worked for the Madrid Police not Gran Canaria
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Alan Taylor on November 02, 2012, 20:33:42
Hi Mavo,

See this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oNdi4NT4O8
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Mavo on November 02, 2012, 20:41:55
Hi Mavo,

See this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oNdi4NT4O8

 Hi Alan
I have a little trouble hearing conversations via youtube on my laptop as the speakers are really rubbish so I will have to power up the wind up model to view and listen. This does take some time as it wants to update a million programs. Bear with me.
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Mavo on November 02, 2012, 21:21:30
Hi Mavo,

See this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oNdi4NT4O8

 Hi Alan
I have a little trouble hearing conversations via youtube on my laptop as the speakers are really rubbish so I will have to power up the wind up model to view and listen. This does take some time as it wants to update a million programs. Bear with me.

 I have had a look at the video and it is a little difficult to follow but it seemed to me that a plan was being devised to get the money back within a period of time. I did not see mention of any costs involved to execute this plan. Have I missed something?
 My wife watched with me and also found it difficult to follow who was saying what and read the added words at the same time. I will have to go over it 2 or 3 times I think.
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Mavo on November 02, 2012, 21:58:32
I have watched this and listened to it again and all I can see is a guy trying to resolve a problem that occurred when Resort Properties had a hand on the helm.

 This is an attempt to get monies back for the client and prevent court proceedings against Resort Properties, because of the Silverpoint connection I suspect.

 I cannot see where it proves that the former practice continues to this day.
 Unless of course there is another video where it is explained that further cities or islands, or whatever they are called, would be needed to recover any shortfalls and there would be a cost to the client to obtain these.
 
 All we seem to be saying is that sometime in the past mis- selling did take place and that efforts are currently (september) being made to resolve matters.

 So where are we trying to go on this? 

* When will I get the message that occurred has two r`s
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: George Samson on November 05, 2012, 13:22:11
Hi Mavo
 
I don’t know who TATOC is, and it really doesn’t matter to me. But your comments do matter to me because for someone who claims to be “in bed with nobody” your  views are extremely biased towards Silverpoint.
 
The Dave Taylor video proves without doubt that the sales people from Resort Properties/Silverpoints continue to lie and cheat in order to defraud people. This video was filmed on the premises of Silverpoint and I congratulate the person who had the foresight to make this video and in doing so expose these lies.
 
The sales people who worked for Resort Properties are the same people who now work for Silverpoints. The Management Team from Resort Properties is now the Management Team of Silverpoints. Same people, same scam. Dave Taylor worked for many years for Resort Properties and is now in a senior management position at Silverpoints – how can you claim he is “just a guy trying to resolve a problem that occurred when Resort Properties had a hand on the helm”? He was at the helm when this fraud was perpetrated by Resort Properties! All he is doing now is cashing in again on his victims distress under the disguise of “Silverpoint”.
 
As a victim of this scam myself I can tell you for a fact that the Silverpoint “meeting” to help Resort Properties victims starts like this “WE HAVE NO ACCESS TO YOUR RESORT PROPERTIES PAPERWORK AND IF YOU DO NOT JOIN US NOW YOU WILL LOOSE YOUR PREVIOUS INVESTMENT WITH RESORT PROPERTIES” This is followed by hours of hard sell in which the “Silverpoint Investment” is sold as your only way out. It guarantees a 15 % p.a return from your investment - a 2 to 3 year turnaround after which you are guaranteed 100% of you investment back including all moneys paid to Resort Properties.  IT’S THE SAME SCAM AND OF COURSE ALL THESE “GUARANTEES” ARE MADE VERBALLY. When you realize that you have been conned again and they realize that they can’t extract any more money from you Mr Taylor provides you with a letter which he states will guarantee the return of your funds. THIS LETTER IS WORTH LESS THAN THE PAPER IT IS WRITTEN ON.  All it does is confirm that Silverpoints will “LIST FOR RESALE” the weeks you were guaranteed would have been sold for a profit years ago!
 
For your information there are lots of us who have joined the criminal and civil proceedings in Tenerife. I can assure you that the proceedings are VERY real and VERY current and everyday more and more victims are joining us. Whoever informed you that they were “not ongoing” was lying to you. If you have any doubts just call the court nr. 3 in Tenerife or the leading lawyer Carlos Koehler in Gran Canaria.  Please, just call and establish the real facts.
 
I cannot believe how you or anyone else in this forum can try to say Resort Properties and Silverpoint are not  the same and I cannot understand why you or anyone else would try to defend a company, who has, and is still causing so much financial damage to families and ruining whole families’ lives with their fraudulent actions. As a victim of this scam the day these people are brought to justice can’t come soon enough and to all of you who have helped cover this up either for personal or financial gain then I hope for your part in it you are also exposed.
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Mavo on November 05, 2012, 14:51:03
Well if "The Dave Taylor video proves without doubt"
 It`s a cut and dry case then. Just show the video in court.

You admit to not knowing TATOC.
And you certainly don`t know me or you would never have come up with the ridiculous statement that I am bias towards Silverpoint.
 I am pushing for answers on this simply because I am not bias. I want the truth and that can only come about by proof.
I have watched the video 3 times and see no proof of anything.
 Put it in front of a legal expert and ask them if it proves anything, they will say the same as me.
   
Nobody can act on conjecture. TATOC can, will and do act on proof.

I notice that you have recently joined and this is your first post so, Welcome George.

Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Willself on November 05, 2012, 17:02:33
MAVO!!

Excellent Response!! 1 wanted to post earlier!! But knew full well,  you would have a ROBUST! position!! Yes if George Samson..has that

Positive Proof!! Like you yet to see it!! Those who DO  know you well..KNOW..full well ..that you are even-handed..1 cannot detect any BIAS

In any of your statements!! PERIOD. :o
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Alan Taylor on November 05, 2012, 17:52:28
Hi Mavo / Willself,

I think both of you are mistaken just look at the film again and you will see that Mr Taylor promises that he will give the victim his money  back in 12 months time, guaranteed!!!!!!!! and look at the letter which he gave him right after his meeting with him which says NOTHING about the guarantee,

(http://i45.tinypic.com/29gers3.jpg)


I obtained this image from the description in the youtube video:

See where it says "Silverpoint Vacation Club will list for resale your two city memberships"   which means nothing

George and whoever made the film are very right in my opinion
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Mavo on November 05, 2012, 18:06:43
And it proves exactly what?

 If after12 months the promises made are not fulfilled then there may be a case.

 It is my unbias opinion that the video would not help a current case.
 Any competent defence would simply say that the promise has yet to be broken.
 But hey! it is only my opinion.

I would suggest that the person who made the video gets a free half hour with a solicitor and asks their opinion.
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Carolinian on January 22, 2013, 15:07:01
TATOC says it wants information to follow up on to investigate Silverpoint, but when that information is provided, they make excuses not to follow up.  They seem to be ''all talk, and no do''.  Sadly, one has to ask if TATOC is bought and paid for as regards certain of its funders.
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: charlie1 on January 22, 2013, 15:57:42
Coming away from Silverpoints sales presentations one thing that is undisputed is that Silverpoints charge a third party 90euros for a studio,137 for a 1 bed,178 for a 2 bed,220 for a 3 bed and 268 for a penthouse (the figures may have changed this was good for last year) exchanging into a Silverpoint Resort in the Canaries these fees are on top of the exchange fee that Dial An Exchange charge £84.

UK Resorts Exchange for this reason don't deal with Silverpoints. RCI are not charged this as they were actively involved in creating their product under the Silverpoints banner.

This was done purely for business reasons to ensure that their members access RCI only. Silverpoints members are not being stopped from using other Independent Exchange Companies but who would with those inflated fees. This is grossly unfair but I am not sure what could be done about this. I wonder if this is brought to the attention of a new owner at point of sale.
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: Carolinian on January 22, 2013, 17:05:13
This is clearly trampling upon members rights.  I do not know what could be done about it legally in Spain (in the US it could be the basis of a legal challenge as a monopolistic practice in restraint of trade), but one thing that should be done about it is that TATOC should raise the issue with them , and if they persist Silverpoint should be disaffiliated from TATOC.  You are right that the facts on this issue are beyond dispute, but I still doubt that TATOC will even raise the issue with someone who gives them money.  We will see.

Coming away from Silverpoints sales presentations one thing that is undisputed is that Silverpoints charge a third party 90euros for a studio,137 for a 1 bed,178 for a 2 bed,220 for a 3 bed and 268 for a penthouse (the figures may have changed this was good for last year) exchanging into a Silverpoint Resort in the Canaries these fees are on top of the exchange fee that Dial An Exchange charge £84.

UK Resorts Exchange for this reason don't deal with Silverpoints. RCI are not charged this as they were actively involved in creating their product under the Silverpoints banner.

This was done purely for business reasons to ensure that their members access RCI only. Silverpoints members are not being stopped from using other Independent Exchange Companies but who would with those inflated fees. This is grossly unfair but I am not sure what could be done about this. I wonder if this is brought to the attention of a new owner at point of sale.
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: acer on January 26, 2013, 09:37:03
There seems to be some dispute as to whether or not the court case is proceeding in Tenerife.  Is there an update on this?
Title: Re: [Video] Silverpoint & RP Scam exposed
Post by: willcarter on August 18, 2014, 12:40:39
I appreciated with it