Final speaker at the seminar

Started by Mavo, October 15, 2009, 18:43:12

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Mavo

The final Speaker at the seminar was to me the most interesting in that the stats he came up with painted a different picture to the one I had imagined. If the developers were to take heed of these stats then they may be more encouraged to change timeshare and bring it into the future.
Paul Mattimoe spoke about "the real public opinion of timeshare." All doom and gloom? Not a bit of it.
Paul`s company publishes Perspective Magazine which is the most read independent publication for the shared ownership industry. It is read by over 20,400 industry professionals in 82 countries.
It can and does reach a very wide audience of developers and their executives.
His second magazine Owners Perspective Magazine is aimed at the consumer and began publication on a monthly basis in January 2009 since which time Paul has given most of his time over to trying to change public perception of the industry. As a result of the work Paul has done there are now Owners Perspective Magazines in some of the larger Tesco & Sainsbury supermarkets, Airport lounges throughout Europe the Middle East and Asia along with selected resorts and hotels.
He has undertaken a very comprehensive survey of readers of the consumer magazine and this survey has thrown up some very interesting figures.
The magazine is being read by 40,000 consumers per month with a fairly good cross section of ages. There is a large readership between the ages of 30 to 45 and I think he said that 38% of them were reading with the aim of looking into the product of timeshare as a holiday investment.
What this means is there is a large amount of interest coming from the next generation. However this is not transferring itself through to actual sales. The reason being that the next generation has computers and with them comes easy access to research which highlights the current flaws in the product.

Lack of an exit strategy, disproportionate rises in management fees. Poor sales techniques. Rental programs.

So what can be done? Well the worst one that puts people off purchase has to be the lack of an effective exit strategy. Create an exit strategy and you will immediately create an entry strategy. They have to go hand in hand.
The first developer to recognise this and do something constructive and suitable about it will kickstart his business.

Stop charging above inflation management fees. The public is not a cash cow.
High management fees are making it cheaper for people to go down the rental route.

Sales techniques.
One chance only.
One strike and your out and your name is passed to all other developers thus blackballing you from future employment in the industry.

Rentals have to be proportionate with management fees or owners will become disillusioned and leave.



tonyc

Tom

Intriguing!

I nipped round 3 Tesco supermarkets in the south-east as soon as I saw your posting.  Living on the edge of London I didn't have to travel far.  One of the 3 had 32 checkouts, another had 26 and the third had 18.  I was unable to find a single copy of the magazine.  Perhaps I am just unfortunate and their demand outstrips their supply.

I am intrigued by the statistic that suggests that there might be a thriving market under the surface amongst the 30-45 age group.  I have a 37 year old daughter and neither her or her 40 year old husband is remotely interested in inheriting my timeshare interests.  Indeed, they have voiced the opposite view. I also have a 35 year old son and both he and his 33 year old wife have stated that they want nothing to do with it.  Incidentally, all four have enjoyed timeshare holidays with and without us.  They enjoy the resorts but believe that the management fees are not worth it!  i believe that you have a daughter in the same age range.  Is she a supporter who is just waiting to inherit?

Finally, I would suggest that at least three of the four flaws in the product quoted (viz exit strategy, management fees and poor(?) - surely dishonest - sales techniques) would probably have figured in at least 95% of returns from the existing membership if they were asked.  So, nothing new there!

 

tonyc

Oh, I forgot!

The possible solutions to the flaws as put forward by Mr Mattimoe all appear to be soluble by the Timeshare developers.  Perhaps Mr Mattimoe shares my belief that the solution is down to the developers and not TATOC or any other outside agency?  Did you not challenge him?
 

Mavo

Tony.
The words used were some of the larger Tesco & Sainsbury outlets.
I am sorry that your Tesco or Sainsbury did not fit into that catergory.
I did not make the statement I simply reported it.
I did not produce the stats, I simply reported them.
I did post poor sales techniques. If you wish to undermine the industry further and discourage new purchasers by substituting "dishonest" for "poor" then that is your perogative.
For myself I cannot see the gain in doing so, for those already using timeshare.
I did highlight the 4 problems in my own words. I did not say they were new.
For me it is a matter of supporting those within the industry who recognise those 4 problem areas. I know they exist. You know they exist.
The fact that you cannot support organizations that you personally abhor even though they have the same objectives as you is something that I am having a real problem with right now.


tonyc

Tom

I could be wrong but I believe that Tescos with 32 and 26 checkouts do rank amongst the largest.  But as I have said, perhaps demand had outstripped supply.  I merely wanted to have a read of the publication so that I could judge its merits for my own sake!

I didn't blame you for reporting the statistics - I just questioned their validity from my own perspective.  Others might well have offspring who are more than happy to take on future management fee responsibilities when the time comes.  Let them say so - perhaps starting with you?

My own perception on sales techniques, especially when I purchased back in 1999, was that they were bascially dishonest.  I was assured that management fees were strictly monitored and controlled and that we, as members, could collectively veto any unjustifiably high increases (obviously mindful of the consequences on the standard of the estate as a result).  I was also assured that it was an investment that I would have little trouble in selling should I choose to do so in the future and that I would certainly cover my initial outlay for a portfolio that had a lease span of over 50 years.  I wasn't "suckered in".  My wife (Maureen) and I had heard sales patter like this before and decided that if only half of what we were being told was true, the investment was worth it.  I was and still am prepared to accept that in the last 10 years I have enjoyed holidays that make the total loss of the initial investment an acceptable penalty.  What I do not like is the feeling that the Timeshare developer can insist on payment of whatever management fees he sees fit to install and I have no alternative other than to pay up.  That is all wrong!  So, yes, it is my appraisal - dishonest - because that is what it was.  I am reasonably happy with DRI but if they continue to milk us with large unjustified increases, there must come a time when I will move across to the significantly increasing numbers of disenchanted.  I don't see that as undermining the industry - it has undermined itself by its actions in the past.  To conceal what has happened and in some cases is still happening from the prospective new purchasers only puts me in the same "basket" as the dishonest brokers who sold us all - or most of us as clearly you had one of the few totally honest sales staff - a flawed article all those years ago.  I can honestly say I would not recommend timeshare to anyone at this moment in time.  Hopefully, if the timeshare industry cleans up its act in the near future, I will be able to change my view.

I am surprised given the Tom I know that you are prepared to say that you cannot see the gain in doing so for those already using timeshare.  I, for one, would not wish to see anyone overstretch themselves because I want to tell them that everything is rosy on my side of the fence, when it isn't! As I have already said, on balance, I am still a happy bunny.  However, I am not as happy as I was.  DRI have been running the business for over 2 years now.  I think they should have addressed and resolved the exit strategy problems in an honest manner by now.

Strange isn't it?  You have attacked me for "saying nothing new" and stating what you say we all already know.  And yet you report it from Mr Mattimoe as if he is saying something new.

I don't abhor TATOC.  I merely treat them with disdain.  You only have to read their website to see how much they rate themselves.  And yet, at the end of the day, they have achieved very little in the last quarter of a century.  If they really want to sort things out, they should be seeking to sort out the cause (the Timeshare developers' greed) not the sickness itself (the scammers).  Cut out the cause and you eventually starve the disease!

I'm sorry you have a problem with the fact that I do not support TATOC but, as I have said before, their past performance does not fill me with "any feelings of warmth".  I don't abhor them, they leave me totally unconvinced as to what they are capable of achieving.
 

Carolinian

The world's first timeshare developer, Hapimag, has always had an exit strategy.  Since the beginning, they have had a program where they would buy back your points after you had owned a certain number of years for a set percentage of the current company selling price for those points.  I do not recall the number of years or the the percenrage involved.  Perhaps we have a Hapimag member who could supply those.

There were certain other conditions that meant if there were a lot of people trying to sell back their points, there could be a waiting list.  A few years ago, there was such a situation from reports I have read, and I believe the waiting period had gotten up to 2 or 3 years.  I do not know if that has now receded or not.  From what I read, earlier they would buy back the points very quickly, and that situation may have returned given that they have been expanding their system.
 

Mavo

That is probably why they remain the leading player in Europe. I just hope that the affiliations tie up with Hapimag that my developer Diamond have negotiated will lead to Diamond copying some of Hapimags best practices. I am ever hopeful.

lawnmower60

Brian

Mavo

quote:
Originally posted by lawnmower60

If you want to read it click below

         http://www.theperspectivemagazine.com/imag/OwnersPerspective_September2009/pageflip.htm



I find The Perspective Magazine a better read with more information on what developers are doing.
www.theperspectivemagazine.com

Mavo

quote:
Originally posted by Mavo

quote:
Originally posted by lawnmower60

If you want to read it click below

         http://www.theperspectivemagazine.com/imag/OwnersPerspective_September2009/pageflip.htm



I find The Perspective Magazine a better read with more information on what developers are doing.
www.theperspectivemagazine.com



Here is this months online edition.
http://www.theperspectivemagazine.com/mags/perspective-magazine-october-2009/

Keitht

It's not often that I find myself coming in to defend Mavo's posts, so don't faint Tom! [:)]

From what I have read of the seminar reports posted Mavo has simply reported what the speakers said with little or no comment regarding his personal opinion of the content or accuracy of their speeches.  Surely that is what those of us who weren't able to attend need.
It's fine to attack the message, but in this instance at least somewhat unfair to attack the messenger.

sensor

If TATOC wishes to be taken seriously, and held in high regard by the people it say's it serves (ie owners), then it needs to step up to the plate and do something that we all acknowledge is a positive move forward for the owners / industry.
As of yet, it still has to make these moves. COULD TATOC be the vehicle to move us forward ? Yes, probably, but as has been stated, it has NOT inspired a lot of confidence on it's past performance.
If TATOC continues in the future the way it has been in the past, then it is in great danger of becoming another toothless tiger - rather similar to the other bunch of losers in Brussels !

Mavo

quote:
Originally posted by sensor

If TATOC wishes to be taken seriously, and held in high regard by the people it say's it serves (ie owners), then it needs to step up to the plate and do something that we all acknowledge is a positive move forward for the owners / industry.
As of yet, it still has to make these moves. COULD TATOC be the vehicle to move us forward ? Yes, probably, but as has been stated, it has NOT inspired a lot of confidence on it's past performance.
If TATOC continues in the future the way it has been in the past, then it is in great danger of becoming another toothless tiger - rather similar to the other bunch of losers in Brussels !




And that is the very reason owners and resorts should support it.
It needs the tools to work with and it is partly up to us the timeshare owners to provide those tools and support it and not simply fall back on past performance as an excuse for not doing so.

8000 members on these forums and only two of us turn up at the seminar.
We are not making much of a contribution ourselves are we?

hal540uk

quote:
Originally posted by tonyc

Tom

I could be wrong but I believe that Tescos with 32 and 26 checkouts do rank amongst the largest.  But as I have said, perhaps demand had outstripped supply.  I merely wanted to have a read of the publication so that I could judge its merits for my own sake!

I didn't blame you for reporting the statistics - I just questioned their validity from my own perspective.  Others might well have offspring who are more than happy to take on future management fee responsibilities when the time comes.  Let them say so - perhaps starting with you?

My own perception on sales techniques, especially when I purchased back in 1999, was that they were bascially dishonest.  I was assured that management fees were strictly monitored and controlled and that we, as members, could collectively veto any unjustifiably high increases (obviously mindful of the consequences on the standard of the estate as a result).  I was also assured that it was an investment that I would have little trouble in selling should I choose to do so in the future and that I would certainly cover my initial outlay for a portfolio that had a lease span of over 50 years.  I wasn't "suckered in".  My wife (Maureen) and I had heard sales patter like this before and decided that if only half of what we were being told was true, the investment was worth it.  I was and still am prepared to accept that in the last 10 years I have enjoyed holidays that make the total loss of the initial investment an acceptable penalty.  What I do not like is the feeling that the Timeshare developer can insist on payment of whatever management fees he sees fit to install and I have no alternative other than to pay up.  That is all wrong!  So, yes, it is my appraisal - dishonest - because that is what it was.  I am reasonably happy with DRI but if they continue to milk us with large unjustified increases, there must come a time when I will move across to the significantly increasing numbers of disenchanted.  I don't see that as undermining the industry - it has undermined itself by its actions in the past.  To conceal what has happened and in some cases is still happening from the prospective new purchasers only puts me in the same "basket" as the dishonest brokers who sold us all - or most of us as clearly you had one of the few totally honest sales staff - a flawed article all those years ago.  I can honestly say I would not recommend timeshare to anyone at this moment in time.  Hopefully, if the timeshare industry cleans up its act in the near future, I will be able to change my view.

I am surprised given the Tom I know that you are prepared to say that you cannot see the gain in doing so for those already using timeshare.  I, for one, would not wish to see anyone overstretch themselves because I want to tell them that everything is rosy on my side of the fence, when it isn't! As I have already said, on balance, I am still a happy bunny.  However, I am not as happy as I was.  DRI have been running the business for over 2 years now.  I think they should have addressed and resolved the exit strategy problems in an honest manner by now.

Strange isn't it?  You have attacked me for "saying nothing new" and stating what you say we all already know.  And yet you report it from Mr Mattimoe as if he is saying something new.

I don't abhor TATOC.  I merely treat them with disdain.  You only have to read their website to see how much they rate themselves.  And yet, at the end of the day, they have achieved very little in the last quarter of a century.  If they really want to sort things out, they should be seeking to sort out the cause (the Timeshare developers' greed) not the sickness itself (the scammers).  Cut out the cause and you eventually starve the disease!

I'm sorry you have a problem with the fact that I do not support TATOC but, as I have said before, their past performance does not fill me with "any feelings of warmth".  I don't abhor them, they leave me totally unconvinced as to what they are capable of achieving.

Time and tide waits for no man

hal540uk

Please accept my apologies for the last posting, a mistake by pressing the wrong button.
What my message was.
Tesco placed the magazine in their "stores in affluent areas " only.
My local store in St Helens did not get the magazine!!
Harry
Time and tide waits for no man

tonyc

quote:
Originally posted by sensor

If TATOC wishes to be taken seriously, and held in high regard by the people it say's it serves (ie owners), then it needs to step up to the plate and do something that we all acknowledge is a positive move forward for the owners / industry.
As of yet, it still has to make these moves. COULD TATOC be the vehicle to move us forward ? Yes, probably, but as has been stated, it has NOT inspired a lot of confidence on it's past performance.
If TATOC continues in the future the way it has been in the past, then it is in great danger of becoming another toothless tiger - rather similar to the other bunch of losers in Brussels !




Sensor

Very eloquently said.  I find I agree with everything you have said and indeed have said much the same myself.  I believe very firmly that if TATOC is ever to take on a proper role it will need to purge itself of the pathetic actions of the last quarter of a century and seek to "reinvent itself as an organisation that WANTS to police the entire timeshare industry".  At present, all it has done is pay lip service to the timeshare industry and seek to tackle the "scammers" in a rather amateurish and ineffective way.  If Mavo seriously thinks that projects an organisation that we should put our weight behind, then I have very sadly misjudged his abilities and knowledge.  Surprisingly, bearing in mind the way that we are attacking each other on this matter, that pains me very much.  But, so be it!
 

tonyc

quote:
Originally posted by hal540uk

Please accept my apologies for the last posting, a mistake by pressing the wrong button.
What my message was.
Tesco placed the magazine in their "stores in affluent areas " only.
My local store in St Helens did not get the magazine!!
Harry



Thank you for that, Harry.  I'm not sure where I need to go to get a hard copy of the magazine.  I know the "credit crunch" has hit us bad in the south-east but the area I have been searching in is the Sidcup/Orpington/Sevenoaks area of north-west Kent.   It has long been regarded as ONE of the "stockbroker commuter belt areas on the periphery of London".  It is surprising that it might not be considered affluent enough.  But then again, as I said before, perhaps we did get copies but they were all snapped up before I got there!
 

Doggy50k

This thread has been cleaned up of any off topic postings.
"You know; the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering."

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