Timesharetalk

Salvage Area => TATOC => Topic started by: hal540uk on December 26, 2012, 14:55:22

Title: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: hal540uk on December 26, 2012, 14:55:22
Dear Carolinian
I have been reviewing all your postings mentioning Stuart Lamont or his companies.
Your first post on Timesharetalk, making reference to him, was in 2004 on August 26th
at 23:27:58.
My reason for doing this is to get an in-depth picture of your views on the situation.

It is also now becoming a concern to me that recently you have begun making negative comments on the integrity of TATOC.


Your postings
2004: 2
August 26th 23:27:58
November 9th 00:12:08
2005: 1 
September 10th 12:46:12                 
2006: 4   
March 14th 12:18:28
April 26th 23:08:09
April 27th, 22:47:15
July 20th 23:58:57 
                 
2007: 0

2008: 0                   

2009: 3
June 17th 09:27:12
June 17th 10:53:47 
June 26th 08:51:25

2010: 1
June 1st 08:42:23

2011:  8                   
March 18th18:02:07
March 20th 13:28:55
March 21th 12:15:23
March 27th 14:34:36 
April 14th  15:16:19
April 15th  06:36:19
August 2nd 17:31:50                         
December 23rd 09:35:58

2012: 20 up to November 19th
January 7th 09:43:53
February 28th 19:59:15
February 29th 19:03:28
March 16th 18:45:48
April 3rd10:49:50
April 26th 18:29:51
April 27th 10:23:56
April 28th, 05:54:01
April 28th 19:36:27
May 13th 17:39:28
June 6th 19:45:40
June 8th 13:30:00
June 8th 13:51:57
June 08, 2012, 14:13:54
June 24th 19:22:18
June 25th 15:09:13
October 16th 15:50:33
October 17th, 07:58:50
October 18th 21:26:47
November 19th 07:17:42

Obviously for TATOC to advance a study into any affiliated company we need to have some form of proof that improprieties are currently taking place, or have taken place in the recent past during their affiliation to TATOC.
It would be unprofessional of us as an organisation with a growing stature to conduct such a study were it to be built on conjecture and rumour. Therefore would you please be so kind as to furnish TATOC with any such documented proof that you may have.
Harry Taylor

Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on December 28, 2012, 07:38:12
First, I was not the first member here to make that observation about the appearance of TATOC slumming around with Spice / Aroma AND Silverpoint in that recent thread.  I just concurred with that previous poster.  And it is not just Spice / Aroma and its master, The Bullfrog.  There has been enough posted on this board about Silverpoint to know that they are pretty slimy, too.  Maybe you can address some of the postings that have been made on these boards about Silverpoint and the way it does business.

The more important overall concern, though, is that the interests of developers are sometimes in line with consumers / members, but also often at loggerheads with members / consumers interests, so there is a real danger of an organization intended to represent members / consumers being too closely aligned with developers.  There are inherent conflicts of interest as well as times that there are communities of interest.  In the US, the developer organization, ARDA, has its subsidiary ''members'' organization, ROC, which is an absolute joke.  If developers and members interests are in opposite directions, ROC, if it takes a stand, will always be for the developers not the members.  Looking at the long history of TATOC and why it was founded, I certainly hope that TATOC does not end up in a similar orbit as ROC.  There has recently been a genuine organization of member-controlled resorts formed in the US, under the guidance of Timesharing Today magazine.

To me, one of the most commendable things in TATOC's history is that it was organized to be a voice of member-run resort committees.  Personally, I only own at member-run resorts, and would never think of buying at a developer-run resort.  I have also served as a board member and president of an HOA board of a member-run resort.  In fact, in our area (here I am speaking of eastern North Carolina where I am from originally), most resorts are member-run.  Sometimes developers have to be given a push to get them to relinquish control to members.  I think one of the most positive things that TATOC could do for the industry is to assist members in getting control of their resorts from developers after the resort sells out or at least a majority of it sells out.  Of course, if you are too tightly aligned with developers, you would never really be in a position do that.

One important issue on resort democracy is having a level playing field in board elections, which means that all sides must have the ability to communicate with the resort members who are the voters for those positions.  Democracy and transparency dictate that to be a free and fair election, it is essential that all sides have access to the voters list a meaningful time prior to the vote to communicate their positions.  Europe, has gotten bogged down in bogus ''privacy'' arguments that allow developers to deny those lists to members who want to challenge them, and this allows the continuation of developer dictatorship in resort committees.  In the UK, political parties have access to voters lists for their campaigns, and it is only fair that competitors in resort committee elections have the same access to their voter lists.  This is another area where members interests conflict with developers initerests.  In the US, state laws often require developers to turn over those lists to members who want to run for timeshare boards, and when one major developer, Worldmark, stonewalled and refused to comply citing the bogus ''privacy'' argument, the case went all the way to the California Supreme Court, with the develper defeated in each successive court.  Ultimately the Supreme Court ruled that not only did Worldmark have to turn over the maling addresses as the statute said but they went beyond the statute and also ruled that they had to turn over email addresses as well.  This is a battle for fundamental member democracy that I would hope some consumer oriented timeshare group would take up in Europe.

Turning from the conflict of interest issues in getting too cozy with developers, you asked about The Bullfrog, and there are a number of issues.

First is the way he runs his South African points clubs.  I would refer you to the article in the Johannesburg Star newspaper that has been posted on this subject.  Perhaps the reporter can update more recent info.  I would also refer you to the Hello Peter consumer site in South Africa that I put up a link to.  Of course, there is a lot of material on the old Cr)meshare site, the archive of which for South Africa is up on another timeshare board.

Second, and most disturbing is his pattern over the past few years to kill off timeshare resorts after running off most of the members, starting with The Seapointer in Capetown.  The list of those resorts is up in other posts, so you have the roadmap to do your research.  Finding members from the dismembered resorts may prove difficult, but some of the The Bullfrog's victims have posted on other timeshare sites as these things were happening.  I would suggest joining those sites and doing PM's to those members to get the low down on what happened from those who experienced it first hand.

Since your organization promotes member-controlled committees, you should also look at the resorts in South Africa that he controlls.  Start with those managed by his management company, First Resorts.  Look to see if First Resorts has been given a ''lifetime contract'' as has been reported.  Look at the composition of those boards.  What you will find is that in most cases it will only be cronies of The Bullfrog's Club Leisure Group, including The Bullfrog himself, The Bullfrog's son, and other associates including a former apartheid-era police general who works for him.  Actual timeshare members are not wanted on those committees.  Is this the type of resort committee that TATOC wants to promote?

The Bullfrog uses his points clubs to take over control of resort committees, and after he gets control, he will bring in his own management.  He tried to do that at a member-controlled resort I own at in South Africa and we fought him and his gang of pirates off.  Given that history, he presents a real danger to those member-controlled resorts in Europe which have foolishly let his Spice / Aroma organization operate on their premises, and TATOC's seal of approval is helping him get his camel's nose under the tent.  I hope you will reverse course on this to protect your own member-controlled resort committees.

Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 08:54:51
Which part of the last sentence posted by Harry Taylor is giving you the most problem Carolinian.
TATOC has said it will act on proof so either provide it or stop waffling and go away.
You are the one constantly bleating on post after post about Lamont and you have been for a number of years, not just months.
Lets have some solid proof up there.
Can you remember when you last, if ever, posted a positive piece on the legitimate timeshare industry because I certainly cannot.
You and the rest of "the little nest of vipers" are traceable on other forums backing up each others negative postings too.


It is very simple.
Harry has told you what TATOC needs for it to act . Now put up or shut up.

 
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Morpheus on December 28, 2012, 11:10:42
Quote from: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 08:54:51
Which part of the last sentence posted by Harry Taylor is giving you the most problem Carolinian.
TATOC has said it will act on proof so either provide it or stop waffling and go away.
You are the one constantly bleating on post after post about Lamont and you have been for a number of years, not just months.
Lets have some solid proof up there.
Can you remember when you last, if ever, posted a positive piece on the legitimate timeshare industry because I certainly cannot.
You and the rest of "the little nest of vipers" are traceable on other forums backing up each others negative postings too.


It is very simple.
Harry has told you what TATOC needs for it to act . Now put up or shut up.



Now, Mavo, I have typically liked your posts.

However, and I do not want dragged into this, but CArolinian appears to have listed a number of independent sources providing the very proof you request, and I would far, far rather have access to source material like this than  anything else.

Given how often on this very site we have used source material from newspapers and similar as evidence it appears odd that you are ignoring the list Carolinian just provided.

Now there may be something else going on here, but perhaps someone can review the sources listed and then comment?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 11:45:04
Quote from: Morpheus on December 28, 2012, 11:10:42
Quote from: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 08:54:51
Which part of the last sentence posted by Harry Taylor is giving you the most problem Carolinian.
TATOC has said it will act on proof so either provide it or stop waffling and go away.
You are the one constantly bleating on post after post about Lamont and you have been for a number of years, not just months.
Lets have some solid proof up there.
Can you remember when you last, if ever, posted a positive piece on the legitimate timeshare industry because I certainly cannot.
You and the rest of "the little nest of vipers" are traceable on other forums backing up each others negative postings too.


It is very simple.
Harry has told you what TATOC needs for it to act . Now put up or shut up.



Now, Mavo, I have typically liked your posts.

However, and I do not want dragged into this, but CArolinian appears to have listed a number of independent sources providing the very proof you request, and I would far, far rather have access to source material like this than  anything else.

Given how often on this very site we have used source material from newspapers and similar as evidence it appears odd that you are ignoring the list Carolinian just provided.

Now there may be something else going on here, but perhaps someone can review the sources listed and then comment?


I must confess that because of the length of it I only did a speed read on Carolinians post.
What I did not spot was any proof being furnished about misdemeanours around Lamonts current activities.
It all seemed to be centered on his past performances.
TATOC can only deal with issues which occur during the time a company is affiliated to it and bound by its code of conduct.
As I have pointed out in other posts it is not about casting companies out it is about bringing them into the fold and creating lasting reform.

I am sure that if there are independent sources listed pointing to proof of current misdemeanours then Harry or others will research them most thoroughly and vigorously and act accordingly. 
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: eneri on December 28, 2012, 12:42:45
Mavo

I'm again wondering who the "little nest of vipers" or "the few trying to destroy timeshare" are. You seem to have nailed Carolinian to that particular mast, perhaps you would care to enlighten us on the others? 
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 13:08:39
Quote from: eneri on December 28, 2012, 12:42:45
Mavo

I'm again wondering who the "little nest of vipers" or "the few trying to destroy timeshare" are. You seem to have nailed Carolinian to that particular mast, perhaps you would care to enlighten us on the others?


Enlighten yourself by doing a little research. I will give you a clue. ;)
If you take a few names of known negative posters and pair them together in Google.
For instance A.N.Other & A.N.Other it can be most illuminating as it brings them up posting together on other forums as well as timesharetalk.  8)  Cool eh!
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on December 28, 2012, 16:56:10
Quote from: eneri on December 28, 2012, 12:42:45
Mavo

I'm again wondering who the "little nest of vipers" or "the few trying to destroy timeshare" are. You seem to have nailed Carolinian to that particular mast, perhaps you would care to enlighten us on the others?


I think by ''timeshare''. he means ''developers''.  He seems to ignore the positive posts I have put up on many of the reputable independent exchange companies, which are a real plus for timesharing, for member-controlled timeshare resorts, and even for the good guys among developers like Hapimag.  Also for genuine consumer oriented timeshare organizations like Timeshare Consumers Association and the new association of member-controlled resorts in the US.  In reality, timeshare has some really bad actors, some sorta bad actors, some okay actors, and some good guys.  We need to tell them all apart, and one cannot do that wearing Mavo's rose-coloured glasses.

The best way to save timesharing is to educate timesharers about their options to use honest independent exchange companies instead of the mega-companies that rent out our exchange deposits to the general public, to have members take control of their resorts from developers and manage them themselves, and similar positive moves.  It is not about staying in the hip pocket of the big developers or the mega exchange companies.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on December 28, 2012, 17:11:40
The problem is the tunnel vision.  He wants only things that the current company, Aroma / Spice has done SINCE they signed on with TATOC, and does not even give a date for that!  The Bullfrog's previous history is to be ignored.  The fact that The Bullfrog's MO is pretty well established seems to mean nothing.  His history would seem to be counter to everything TATOC says it stands for, yet they do not want to look at his history.

It seems under Harry's standards, if John Palmer, out of prison, sets up a new timeshare company and signs up to TATOC, then they will only investigate things he does in that new company.  All his past deeds will not be considered.  Is that any way to run a consumer-oriented timeshare association?

I also note that Harry gives a long list of dates of my posts instead of links to those posts, which would contain the reasons for concern about The Bullfrog.  Mighty curious that he does not provide links.  During that time The Bullfrog has crashed multiple timeshares in South Africa, starting with The Seapointer.

I am one who helped fight to keep the independence of my member-controlled timeshare resort against an unscrupulous raider (The Bullfrog) and we won. I own at other timeshares where people who went before fought those battles to get rid of developer control and put the timeshare members in charge, and those resorts have thrived. At the two European resorts I have owned at, the developers had the good manners to set up a transition to member control themselves, but not all developers have those good manners.  Have you or Harry ever tried to fight for members control at a timeshare? I very seriously doubt it.  Drinking the developer koolaid is not going to save timesharing.

TATOC is supposed to be there to support member-controlled timeshare committees.  Getting too tied up with developers can make that a difficult goal to accomplish.

Oh, and what about the other bad actor that was originally brought up by another member in the thread that inspired this one?  I don't think I have had much to say about Silverpoint, other than being appalled at what has been reported by others.  All the details have come from others on these boards.  What do you and Harry have to say about Silverpoint?

TATOC's goals are great and it has a great history.  It just seems to be getting a bit off track lately.  A little more concentration on what the real interests of its constituents is, and it could do great things.  Independent resorts run by their members are a huge positive for timesharing.  Not all developers are bad, and care needs to be taken to nudge them in a constructive direction to give members their proper voice.  DRI management's refusal to allow free and fair HOA board elections at Point at Poipu, where a free election might likely overturn DRI's majority on the board since DRI has only a minority of ownership is one clear example of abuse of power by a developer.  Ditto Fairfield / Wyndham's battle with the owners at Bluebeards Castle in which they spent lots of corporate money both in lawsuits and in political battles to try to oust member-control of the several HOA boards there.  Ditto Worldmark's denial of democracy in its board elections, which the California Supreme Court just spanked them on.  That is who is really attacking timeshare; the developers who deny democracy to their members.  Whose side are you on in that battle, Mavo?  Should developers be able to rig board elections at resorts to put their cronies on the boards and then keep themselves as overpaid management?


Quote from: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 08:54:51
Which part of the last sentence posted by Harry Taylor is giving you the most problem Carolinian.
TATOC has said it will act on proof so either provide it or stop waffling and go away.
You are the one constantly bleating on post after post about Lamont and you have been for a number of years, not just months.
Lets have some solid proof up there.
Can you remember when you last, if ever, posted a positive piece on the legitimate timeshare industry because I certainly cannot.
You and the rest of "the little nest of vipers" are traceable on other forums backing up each others negative postings too.


It is very simple.
Harry has told you what TATOC needs for it to act . Now put up or shut up.


Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 17:23:36
How many times do you have to be told that TATOC cannot in law act upon past demeanours that occured before any company became affiliated and signed the agreement to abide by the TATOC code of conduct.
I can see your reasoning but you must see that past performance is no guarantee of future performance and the law does not permit TATOC to judge any company on past performance.
What in effect you seem to be saying is that you have no proof of non-compliance in current performance.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on December 28, 2012, 17:53:23
Quote from: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 17:23:36
How many times do you have to be told that TATOC cannot in law act upon past demeanours that occured before any company became affiliated and signed the agreement to abide by the TATOC code of conduct.
I can see your reasoning but you must see that past performance is no guarantee of future performance and the law does not permit TATOC to judge any company on past performance.
What in effect you seem to be saying is that you have no proof of non-compliance in current performance.


TATOC is free to accept or not accept anyone as a member or to renew or not renew membership.

Let's take one simple issue that ought to be central to TATOC's mission.  That is member control of boards.  Simply look at the SA resorts The Bullfrog controls and stacks boards with himself and his cronies, pushing out the regular members.  It seems like that should be enough to say, ''hey, this is not what we want to promote''.  If you want current, then look at the current composition of all of those boards.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 18:22:12
Quote from: Carolinian on December 28, 2012, 17:53:23
Quote from: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 17:23:36
How many times do you have to be told that TATOC cannot in law act upon past demeanours that occured before any company became affiliated and signed the agreement to abide by the TATOC code of conduct.
I can see your reasoning but you must see that past performance is no guarantee of future performance and the law does not permit TATOC to judge any company on past performance.
What in effect you seem to be saying is that you have no proof of non-compliance in current performance.


TATOC is free to accept or not accept anyone as a member or to renew or not renew membership.

Let's take one simple issue that ought to be central to TATOC's mission.  That is member control of boards.  Simply look at the SA resorts The Bullfrog controls and stacks boards with himself and his cronies, pushing out the regular members.  It seems like that should be enough to say, ''hey, this is not what we want to promote''.  If you want current, then look at the current composition of all of those boards.


OK I will ask you a very simple question. Could TATOC act, under its rules and codes of practice, against Aroma on the basis of the composition of those boards?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on December 28, 2012, 18:32:30
Unless there is something very different in UK law, any organization generally can determine who can join or remain a member.  Now, with its own internal rules, I do not know.

The best thing might be to add member democracy standards to the Code of Conduct.

And with some of the things being reported on these boards about Silverpoint, I cannot see how they would comply with TATOC's standards. Why don't you send someone in undercover to pose as a buyer and see what they get?  That is the best way to get the true picture.


Quote from: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 18:22:12
Quote from: Carolinian on December 28, 2012, 17:53:23
Quote from: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 17:23:36
How many times do you have to be told that TATOC cannot in law act upon past demeanours that occured before any company became affiliated and signed the agreement to abide by the TATOC code of conduct.
I can see your reasoning but you must see that past performance is no guarantee of future performance and the law does not permit TATOC to judge any company on past performance.
What in effect you seem to be saying is that you have no proof of non-compliance in current performance.


TATOC is free to accept or not accept anyone as a member or to renew or not renew membership.

Let's take one simple issue that ought to be central to TATOC's mission.  That is member control of boards.  Simply look at the SA resorts The Bullfrog controls and stacks boards with himself and his cronies, pushing out the regular members.  It seems like that should be enough to say, ''hey, this is not what we want to promote''.  If you want current, then look at the current composition of all of those boards.


OK I will ask you a very simple question. Could TATOC act, under its rules and codes of practice, against Aroma on the basis of the composition of those boards?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 19:11:32
Quote from: Carolinian on December 28, 2012, 18:32:30


And with some of the things being reported on these boards about Silverpoint, I cannot see how they would comply with TATOC's standards. Why don't you send someone in undercover to pose as a buyer and see what they get?  That is the best way to get the true picture.
quote)

Who do you suggest -- me! :o
I am sure that TATOC are capable of doing their investigations without advice.

* You forgot to say Silverpoints predecessors

Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: eneri on December 28, 2012, 21:30:47
Quote from: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 13:08:39
Quote from: eneri on December 28, 2012, 12:42:45
Mavo

I'm again wondering who the "little nest of vipers" or "the few trying to destroy timeshare" are. You seem to have nailed Carolinian to that particular mast, perhaps you would care to enlighten us on the others?


Enlighten yourself by doing a little research. I will give you a clue. ;)
If you take a few names of known negative posters and pair them together in Google.
For instance A.N.Other & A.N.Other it can be most illuminating as it brings them up posting together on other forums as well as timesharetalk.  8)  Cool eh!


Why do I have to do any research? Rather than give clues why don't you just answer a very simple question. Who are these people? After all you are the one making the accusations. Don't you think we should all know who you are taking about? If not, I would suggest you heed the advice you gave to Carolinian in an earlier post and "either put up or shut up".  ;)
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 22:21:34
Quote from: eneri on December 28, 2012, 21:30:47
Quote from: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 13:08:39
Quote from: eneri on December 28, 2012, 12:42:45
Mavo

I'm again wondering who the "little nest of vipers" or "the few trying to destroy timeshare" are. You seem to have nailed Carolinian to that particular mast, perhaps you would care to enlighten us on the others?


Enlighten yourself by doing a little research. I will give you a clue. ;)
If you take a few names of known negative posters and pair them together in Google.
For instance A.N.Other & A.N.Other it can be most illuminating as it brings them up posting together on other forums as well as timesharetalk.  8)  Cool eh!


Why do I have to do any research? Rather than give clues why don't you just answer a very simple question. Who are these people? After all you are the one making the accusations. Don't you think we should all know who you are taking about? If not, I would suggest you heed the advice you gave to Carolinian in an earlier post and "either put up or shut up".  ;)


I just thought it may be enlightening for you eneri--- and obviously it must have been for you to kick off so ;)
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: eneri on December 28, 2012, 23:13:17
Since I'm not really sure where you are going with this I'd rather you just explained yourself and also gave an answer to my original question.
PS. I didn't think I was kicking off but my clumsy attempt at jokingly quoting you has obviously backfired!
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 23:56:07
Quote from: eneri on December 28, 2012, 23:13:17
Since I'm not really sure where you are going with this I'd rather you just explained yourself and also gave an answer to my original question.
PS. I didn't think I was kicking off but my clumsy attempt at jokingly quoting you has obviously backfired!

Your pretence of failure to understand is funny- not hilarious- but nevertheless funny.

*psst. The word you were scratching around for above was give not gave.

Regards  Tomeluk
 
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: eneri on December 29, 2012, 00:18:30
Quote from: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 23:56:07
Quote from: eneri on December 28, 2012, 23:13:17
Since I'm not really sure where you are going with this I'd rather you just explained yourself and also gave an answer to my original question.
PS. I didn't think I was kicking off but my clumsy attempt at jokingly quoting you has obviously backfired!

Your pretence of failure to understand is funny- not hilarious- but nevertheless funny.

*psst. The word you were scratching around for above was give not gave.

Regards  Tomeluk
 


And your attempt to pick up on grammatical errors instead of answering simple questions is likewise.

Gawd, talk about pulling teeth!

Goodnight. I'll get back over the week-end.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on December 29, 2012, 12:23:35
I think the real problem for TATOC would be in 2 or 3 years if Harry gets a call from a committee chairman of a member-controlled resort that has long been affiliated with TATOC who will, in some distress relate that at their AGM on Saturday past, the Bullfrog walked in with the votes of the weeks ceded to Aroma and took over the board, that all of their new board were from The Bullfrog's companies, and one was even a former South African police general!  The longtime management had been informed that they were going to be replaced by a management company owned by The Bullfrog with a very longterm contract.

Harry, the chairman will say, TATOC told us this company was okay and gave their stamp of approval and now look what they have done to us!  We did a little checking on the internet and found out that they had been doing this for years, starting in South Africa, and that you had been informed of that.  Why, Harry, did you set us up for this?  Even if you did not warn us, why did you give your stamp of approval, which we depended upon>

How is Harry going to be able to answer that one?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: peachie on December 29, 2012, 12:59:15
Carolinian , I have always agreed with what you have said in the past , and , as moderators on here have always stated , we are all allowed to state our own opinions , mine is to have a product that works for the people who can stand the maint fees , and are still able to travel and enjoy the high quality resorts , my stance has always been ob the side of those who cannot afford it , who are unable to travel , for instance , i spoke to a Mac Donalds owner whose husband went into hospital for an illness which sadly made him blind , the wife being unable to drive mwant they could not drive from the south coast upto the resort in scotland direction, after telling this to the resort and asking to take it back off them they got the reply .... being disabled does not stop you from being able to use the resort !! , THIS , is what im aiming at when i talk about an exit plan , whatever means is used and how it affects a resort i dont care , they can look after themselves.
But the main reason for my comment here is that after all the compassion that Carolinian has for Timeshare , im shocked at the slating being sent in his / her direction on this forum . TATOC , is funded by the resorts it protects , if that includes Spice / Aroma , then you make your bed as the saying goes , that incudes Silverpoint.
Having said this i supose its my turn for the ill comment ?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on December 29, 2012, 13:43:30
Quote from: peachie on December 29, 2012, 12:59:15
Carolinian , I have always agreed with what you have said in the past , and , as moderators on here have always stated , we are all allowed to state our own opinions , mine is to have a product that works for the people who can stand the maint fees , and are still able to travel and enjoy the high quality resorts , my stance has always been ob the side of those who cannot afford it , who are unable to travel , for instance , i spoke to a Mac Donalds owner whose husband went into hospital for an illness which sadly made him blind , the wife being unable to drive mwant they could not drive from the south coast upto the resort in scotland direction, after telling this to the resort and asking to take it back off them they got the reply .... being disabled does not stop you from being able to use the resort !! , THIS , is what im aiming at when i talk about an exit plan , whatever means is used and how it affects a resort i dont care , they can look after themselves.
But the main reason for my comment here is that after all the compassion that Carolinian has for Timeshare , im shocked at the slating being sent in his / her direction on this forum . TATOC , is funded by the resorts it protects , if that includes Spice / Aroma , then you make your bed as the saying goes , that incudes Silverpoint.
Having said this i supose its my turn for the ill comment ?


Carolinian has been asked, in various manners, to produce proof of current activities that TATOC can act upon.
The simple fact is that, sadly, he has not delivered that proof.
He has seemed to deliver on "past performance" activities by pointing to various sources, unfortunately TATOC cannot act on past performance.
It can only place sanctions on affiliates who are proved to be currently engaged in negative consumer activities that break the TATOC code of conduct.
This is the present position and agreed TATOC policy.
  I am sorry that it is just a repeat of what has already been stated.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: hal540uk on December 29, 2012, 16:39:22
Dear Carolinian
Up to 2008 the TATOC remit was to represent owner committee's not individual timeshare owners. If owners did contact Tatoc direct they were referred to their own committee or if no committee the developer concerned.

In late2008 we opened the helpline to all timeshare owners whether their committees was a TATOC members or not. Records are now kept of all calls, emails etc. I will not go into the numbers now but they are available on the site. We always ask can we have the owner's permission to discuss their enquiry/problem with other parties in an effort to resolve, 95% agree.  This has become invaluable recently in helping to take legal action

Since the helpline opened TATOC has not received one complaint from a Flexiclub member or from any of Stuart Lamont's companies.

I am aware that others have posted on various sites but not as often as you. That is why I asked your assistance in getting proof by directing me to dissatisfied members.

It does not concern me how you feel about the company.

Your scenario about what could happen in the future is actually happening now with many resorts finding themselves in the situation of the managing company having more weeks than the owners.

Why?

Committees are asking them to take the weeks for the yearly management fee but, what happens if they do not get the yearly fees for the defaulted weeks. Fees rise, leading to more defaults and eventually the resort declines and close.

Many companies are offering to take weeks by changing ownership to points and most are fully compliance with the regulations.
Resort committees should be fully aware of the needs of their satisfied members and the way they accommodate members who wish to leave timeshare but, always remembering all  have the right to change from weeks to  points. It is the committees responsibility to plan well for the future.

A hard one to solve, but it is being addressed by TATOC who will launch a special project aimed at assisting resorts at the conference in March

You refer to other TATOC affiliated companies. I can assure you that all complaints/ enquiries are fully investigated.
In July 2012 one company was disaffiliated for non-compliance. Affiliation is reviewed automaticly yearly.

Harry Taylor
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on December 30, 2012, 10:15:24
Harry - Let me suggest one defensive mechanism that member-controlled resorts can deploy to stop the parasite operations.  One resort I am aware of that uses it is Stouts Hill.  That is simply to amend the governing instruments to provide that each member gets one vote no matter how many weeks they have.  That way these developers or points clubs only end up with one  vote in the AGM and get chopped down to size.

TATOC ought to be pushing all its member-controlled resorts to adopt this mechanism.

There are a boatload of complaints about Flexiclub South Africa on the Hello Peter consumer site in South Africa.  There also were on the Cr!meshare site, and indeed that site also included complaints about the much smaller Flexiclub UK.  It is indeed
strange that you do not get any.

And what about Silverpoint?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on December 30, 2012, 10:25:05
And if TATOC's standards are that it would accept even the likes of John ''Goldfinger'' Palmer, if he promises to be a good boy now and obey the TATOC code of conduct in the future, inspite of what he has done in the past, then perhaps TATOC ought to give serious thought to reviewing those policies.

A leopard cannot change its spots, and these timeshare conmen do not fundamentally become squeaky clean businessmen.


Quote from: Mavo on December 29, 2012, 13:43:30
Quote from: peachie on December 29, 2012, 12:59:15
Carolinian , I have always agreed with what you have said in the past , and , as moderators on here have always stated , we are all allowed to state our own opinions , mine is to have a product that works for the people who can stand the maint fees , and are still able to travel and enjoy the high quality resorts , my stance has always been ob the side of those who cannot afford it , who are unable to travel , for instance , i spoke to a Mac Donalds owner whose husband went into hospital for an illness which sadly made him blind , the wife being unable to drive mwant they could not drive from the south coast upto the resort in scotland direction, after telling this to the resort and asking to take it back off them they got the reply .... being disabled does not stop you from being able to use the resort !! , THIS , is what im aiming at when i talk about an exit plan , whatever means is used and how it affects a resort i dont care , they can look after themselves.
But the main reason for my comment here is that after all the compassion that Carolinian has for Timeshare , im shocked at the slating being sent in his / her direction on this forum . TATOC , is funded by the resorts it protects , if that includes Spice / Aroma , then you make your bed as the saying goes , that incudes Silverpoint.
Having said this i supose its my turn for the ill comment ?


Carolinian has been asked, in various manners, to produce proof of current activities that TATOC can act upon.
The simple fact is that, sadly, he has not delivered that proof.
He has seemed to deliver on "past performance" activities by pointing to various sources, unfortunately TATOC cannot act on past performance.
It can only place sanctions on affiliates who are proved to be currently engaged in negative consumer activities that break the TATOC code of conduct.
This is the present position and agreed TATOC policy.
  I am sorry that it is just a repeat of what has already been stated.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: eneri on January 02, 2013, 00:32:12
Quote from: eneri on December 29, 2012, 00:18:30
Quote from: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 23:56:07
Quote from: eneri on December 28, 2012, 23:13:17
Since I'm not really sure where you are going with this I'd rather you just explained yourself and also gave an answer to my original question.
PS. I didn't think I was kicking off but my clumsy attempt at jokingly quoting you has obviously backfired!

Your pretence of failure to understand is funny- not hilarious- but nevertheless funny.

*psst. The word you were scratching around for above was give not gave.

Regards  Tomeluk
 


And your attempt to pick up on grammatical errors instead of answering simple questions is likewise.

Gawd, talk about pulling teeth!

Goodnight. I'll get back over the week-end.


Mavo
Since you haven't come back with an answer to my original question and following your comments on various posts, I'll assume that you are refering to me as one of "the nest of vipers". If my assumption is correct would you show where anything I've written about timeshare either on this forum or elsewhere could prove I was involved in a conspiracy or even single-handedly "trying to destroy timeshare" or admit you were wrong and we can all move on.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 02, 2013, 07:25:13
The silence is still deafening on Silverpoint, which another poster brought up.  We're waiting to hear from you Harry and Mavo.

Another proactive way to defeat these points clubs is what Outer Banks Beach Club I and II in North Carolina did.  They sued the Peppertree / Equivest points club and obtained a court order that the individual owners who owned the underlying weeks at the resorts, NOT the points club had the votes at their AGM.

Of course, the Stouts Hill method is quicker and cheaper to deal appropriately with them. 

These points clubs are a threat to member control of resort boards and they need to be checkmated.  TATOC seems to be asleep at the switch.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 02, 2013, 12:51:49
Quote from: eneri on January 02, 2013, 00:32:12
Quote from: eneri on December 29, 2012, 00:18:30
Quote from: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 23:56:07
Quote from: eneri on December 28, 2012, 23:13:17
Since I'm not really sure where you are going with this I'd rather you just explained yourself and also gave an answer to my original question.
PS. I didn't think I was kicking off but my clumsy attempt at jokingly quoting you has obviously backfired!

Your pretence of failure to understand is funny- not hilarious- but nevertheless funny.

*psst. The word you were scratching around for above was give not gave.

Regards  Tomeluk
 


And your attempt to pick up on grammatical errors instead of answering simple questions is likewise.

Gawd, talk about pulling teeth!

Goodnight. I'll get back over the week-end.


Mavo
Since you haven't come back with an answer to my original question and following your comments on various posts, I'll assume that you are refering to me as one of "the nest of vipers". If my assumption is correct would you show where anything I've written about timeshare either on this forum or elsewhere could prove I was involved in a conspiracy or even single-handedly "trying to destroy timeshare" or admit you were wrong and we can all move on.


Of course I have not come back with an answer for you.
You sit in whatever corner you see yourself in.


Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 02, 2013, 13:09:15
Carolinian says that "a leopard cannot change its spots"

Do you think Carolinian, that TATOC would be allowed to use that in an argument or indeed in an enquiry into the current conduct of one or more of its affiliates?
Do you also really expect any TATOC activities centred around enquiries into the activities of any affiliate to be made public knowledge?

Harry has already stated that last year one company was removed from being affiliated.
Did you know about it at the time?
Was it made public during the TATOC enquiries or the subsequent findings and removal?

The answers to all the above should be NO and the reasons should be equally as obvious.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 02, 2013, 16:13:33
Was that one other company a developer or some other timeshare-related entity?

I think if a ''Goldfinger'' Palmer shows up and says he is straight now, and wants to sign TATOC's pledge, then TATOC has a duty to the timeshare members to remember what he has done in the past and not put their seal of approval on his new operation to give it credibility.


Quote from: Mavo on January 02, 2013, 13:09:15
Carolinian says that "a leopard cannot change its spots"

Do you think Carolinian, that TATOC would be allowed to use that in an argument or indeed in an enquiry into the current conduct of one or more of its affiliates?
Do you also really expect any TATOC activities centred around enquiries into the activities of any affiliate to be made public knowledge?

Harry has already stated that last year one company was removed from being affiliated.
Did you know about it at the time?
Was it made public during the TATOC enquiries or the subsequent findings and removal?

The answers to all the above should be NO and the reasons should be equally as obvious.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: eneri on January 03, 2013, 08:37:39
Quote from: Mavo on January 02, 2013, 12:51:49
Quote from: eneri on January 02, 2013, 00:32:12
Quote from: eneri on December 29, 2012, 00:18:30
Quote from: Mavo on December 28, 2012, 23:56:07
Quote from: eneri on December 28, 2012, 23:13:17
Since I'm not really sure where you are going with this I'd rather you just explained yourself and also gave an answer to my original question.
PS. I didn't think I was kicking off but my clumsy attempt at jokingly quoting you has obviously backfired!

Your pretence of failure to understand is funny- not hilarious- but nevertheless funny.

*psst. The word you were scratching around for above was give not gave.

Regards  Tomeluk
 


And your attempt to pick up on grammatical errors instead of answering simple questions is likewise.

Gawd, talk about pulling teeth!

Goodnight. I'll get back over the week-end.


Mavo
Since you haven't come back with an answer to my original question and following your comments on various posts, I'll assume that you are refering to me as one of "the nest of vipers". If my assumption is correct would you show where anything I've written about timeshare either on this forum or elsewhere could prove I was involved in a conspiracy or even single-handedly "trying to destroy timeshare" or admit you were wrong and we can all move on.


Of course I have not come back with an answer for you.
You sit in whatever corner you see yourself in.




So you don't have an answer. Fair do's!
Don't know where I'll sit. Hopefully well clear of any future mud slinging!
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: peachie on January 03, 2013, 18:15:15
Mud slinging or reading in between the lines , either way i have mentioned many times about advert banners on here  from companies being condoned as scammers , as i get the usual answers , This forum sometimes seems to be designed for the industry and not for the people using the industry ........... Did i say that right ?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: eneri on January 03, 2013, 22:22:33
Don't think so peachie. I am in broad agreement with you about "advert banners" and said many moons ago that that is probably the only thing we agree on. However, I'm not sure why you are bringing it up on this thread.  If you read everything on here you will see that this forum allows everyone to air their views no matter which side of the industry they are on. Think it's known as free speech.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 08, 2013, 21:00:48
Well, the silence remains deafening from Harry and Mavo.

Care to give us your views on Silverpointe?

The other poster who first raised the issue of TATOC's integrity mentioned TWO of its affiliates, Silverpoint and Spice / Aroma.  Harry, however, focuses this thread on just one of them and on me, when I merely agreed with that poster.  I have specifically asked him about Silverpointe and get no response.

Silverpoint is a European company, and from posts on these boards from those who have dealt with it, is currently up to shananigans here in Europe.  Yet all we here from Harry and Mavo on them is crickets.

The Bullfrog and his operations are indeed a bit trickier, given TATOC's narrowing what they will consider.  They only want info after they signed TATOC's  standards, but don't even bother to tell us when that was, and only from their European operation.  Never mind what they have done in South Africa!

Flexi-Club in Europe has never been much of a sales success, and they do not have a big enough footprint in the industry to start taking over and crashing resorts by themselves.  They couldn't whether they wanted to or not.  Add Spice / Aroma, with the ''exit program'' twist, and who knows, they may ultimately get into that position, working together to be such a threat.  But that is what the Bullfrog has used his points clubs in South Africa for.  If TATOC wanted to protect its members, they ought to be warned about letting these guys onto their property to sell.

The other thing that the Bullfrog has been noted for in South Africa is stampeding members from one of his points clubs to another for a big ''conversion fee''.  Until recently, he only had one points club in Europe so that was not a posibility.  With Spice / Aroma now on the scene, that dynamic has changed.  Will he be up to his old South African tricks in Europe and how soon?  Perhaps the member representatives of Flexi-Club Europe ought to be warned to be on their guard?

Finally, Harry says he wants to'' investigate'' the Bullfrog (but apparently NOT Silverpointe).  If he were serious and sincere about that, he would have PM'ed me privately to ask for assistance, not started this ''in your face'' thread.  Among other things, when you are going to do an invesigation on someone, you hardly do that by announcing it in public and tipping them off.  If he had approached this in a sincere manner, I would have not hesitated to provide what help I could.

Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 09, 2013, 19:15:26

Here is one reporter that any investigation ought to talk with, from the Johannisburg Star newspaper.  This is in one of those post where Harry gave the date but not the link.  Perhaps this reporter ought to update by checking out what this crowd has done with those resorts listed in the other posts that Harry did not give the links to, many with links to other timeshare sites about what was going on.  I think that might make an interesting sequel to this article!


July 8 2006

SATURDAY STAR - JOHANNESBURG, SOUTH AFRICA

Travel clubs rocked by claims of deceit

Clients accuse timeshare giants of swindling millions from them, writes Sheena Adams

Sheena Adams

Lies and misinformation are among the scandalous claims levelled against timeshare giants Flexi-Club and the Club Leisure Group, accused of swindling tens of millions of rands from clients.
The matter has been investigated by the Department of Trade and Industry, and CLG is currently the subject of a second investigation by the South African Revenue Service.
Unhappy clients from Flexi-Club and Club Resorts International (CRI), both of which are managed by a CLG subsidiary, have also amassed scores of written complaints and signed affidavits placing serious allegations at the feet of Flexi-Club managing director and CLG chairperson Stuart Lamont. Lamont has distanced himself and his companies from the allegations.
At the heart of the matter is the claim that Lamont helped to engineer a deal in 2000 whereby a management company, Club Leisure Management (CLM), was formed together with the Southern African arm of global timeshare leader RCI (Resorts Condominium International).
In the same year, RCI also purchased CRI Operations, the company with the management contract to administer CRI Club, a popular, points-based timeshare concept.
S'bu Mngadi, managing director of RCI's Global Vacation Network for Africa, told the Saturday Star this week that RCI soon afterwards sold CRI Operations to CLM. RCI and Flexi-Club continued to own CLM, with RCI as a minority shareholder, according to Mngadi. CLM then took over the management of the CRI club.
According to information received from several clients, former CRI consultants and a former director of the CRI Management Association (CRIMA), Lamont embarked on an aggressive marketing drive in 2002 aimed at converting CRI clients to Flexi-Club.
Clients allege, many of them in signed affidavits, that "arrogant and aggressive" Flexi-Club consultants began contacting them, spinning a yarn that CRI was in financial difficulty, that it had been bought over by Flexi Club and that clients had no option but to buy into Flexi-Club. In order to do this, clients had to purchase Flexi Club points, at an average cost of about R5 000.
Johannesburg businessman Bruce Phillips said he forfeited R30 000 in levies and many thousands more in legal fees after he was forced to hire an attorney to extricate himself from his timeshare contract.
A CRI client for many years, Phillips said he became disillusioned with constant problems trying to secure availability at his preferred resorts. The last straw came a few years ago when he was phoned "non-stop" by a Flexi-Club consultant, trying to convince him to convert his points.
"They never stopped phoning - at night, during the day and over weekends. They wanted me to convert my points to another scam and made all sorts of overtures about CRI going under and being taken over by Flexi-Club," an angry Phillips said.
According to figures announced at a CRIMA meeting last year, CRI had fewer than 10 000 members, a loss of more than 25 000 members. Members were told that 13 300 CRI members were converted to Flexi-Club during the past three years.
A former CRIMA director, who asked not to be named, said the CRIMA board of directors, along with the directors of CRI Operations, should be held accountable for "this in-house type of incestuous breeding".
"They are supposed to protect and promote the CRI points system and yet they have allowed consultants to actively convert people over to Flexi-Club. They knowingly permitted the conversions �
"You can't have different brand names under the same roof if you've got the one screwing the other," he said.
"It makes commercial sense if you can get R5 000 out of a whole list of people. If you convert 10 000 people, you've got R50-million," he added.
Responding to the allegations, Lamont denied that Flexi-Club consultants were behind the strong-arm tactics and instead blamed independent marketing firms. He said he would be very interested in investigating the claims. He said Flexi-Club was "very, very fussy" about conversions and that they were not entered into unless the person was made "fully aware of all the details".
He also claimed that several CRI members had complained about deteriorating rooms and resorts and had requested changing over to Flexi-Club.
"CRI is still strong and it's still operating. It is not insolvent and there is nothing wrong with it," Lamont said - but CRI clients canvassed by the Saturday Star slammed Lamont's comments.
Dorothy Higgins, of Johannesburg, was offered to convert at the "special price" of R3 300 and was contacted by consultants claiming to represent CRI.
"They tell you they are phoning from CRI, and then when you meet them, they say they are actually from Club Leisure Management and they are representing Flexi-Club.
"They'd say that CRI was definitely going under," Higgins said.
The comments coincide with a warning issued this week by credit information ombudsman Manie van Schalkwyk about "aggressive timeshare salespeople".
Van Schalkwyk said his office had seen an upswing in the number of consumers being blacklisted for timeshare purchases and warned people to "read the fine print" and not be bullied by aggressive sales tactics and "partial truths".
He added that although there was currently no legislative power over the timeshare industry, the Timeshare Institute of SA (TISA) was mandated to deal with complaints.
The acting executive director of TISA, Alex Bosch, who is also a director at CLM, said TISA was aware of the allegations and had referred the complaints to the Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) in 2002. As far as TISA was concerned, there was "no merit in certain of the allegations".
Ebrahim Mohamed, chief director of the office of consumer protection at the department, said the department's investigation had revealed that the manner in which certain Flexi-Club agents were approaching CRI members was "indeed problematic".
"It was then agreed between the DTI and Flexi-Club that changes had to be effected with immediate effect.
"Flexi-Club agents had to explain to converting members that CRI was not in liquidation," Ebrahim said.
Sources have confirmed that an investigation into the Club Leisure Group has also been launched by the SA Revenue Service. The Competition Commission is also keen to look into the matter, according to its enforcement and exemptions manager, Thulani Kunene.
The operations manager at CLM, Peter Snyman, also responding on behalf of Lamont, said permission to market Flexi-Club to CRI members was obtained from the former CRI board because members were struggling to "receive holidays as a result of the exceedingly poor mixture and availability of timeshare properties in their property portfolio".
He said the conversion fees were necessary in order to enable CRI members to become Flexi-Club members.
"We do not condone any bullying behaviour with potential clients. Staff are trained to show potential members the benefits of joining Flexi-Club, and members are � required to make up their own minds."








Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 19:25:18
A most interesting post from 8th July 2006

Unfortunately it does not appear to have any bearing on January 2013


Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 09, 2013, 19:31:33
Actually, that is the date of the newspaper article that is quoted, not the post.

So you believe that the leopard can change his spots, and undoubtedly would welcome John ''Goldfinger'' Palmer into TATOC, in spite of his history, if he would promise that now he would swear by the TATOC code and be a good boy in the future!

. . . and you still haven't replied about Silverpoint.  What is your excuse there?


Quote from: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 19:25:18
A most interesting post from 8th July 2006

Unfortunately it does not appear to have any bearing on January 2013

Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Boss Man on January 09, 2013, 19:49:07
Quote from: peachie on January 03, 2013, 18:15:15
Mud slinging or reading in between the lines , either way i have mentioned many times about advert banners on here  from companies being condoned as scammers , as i get the usual answers , This forum sometimes seems to be designed for the industry and not for the people using the industry ........... Did i say that right ?


Peachie,

Just for your sake and the others, the majority of the banners are delivered by Google. I have a limited amount of control over who gets shown on the site, but this can only be done if I am made aware of advertisers.

Please don't bring the integrity of the site itself into this discussion.

And I assure you, this site was designed solely for owners and users of Timeshares and Fractional products, not for the industry itself. I have always prided myself on this fact. I have nothing to do with the industry itself, I am an owner. I created the site as a mutual discussion point for Timeshare owners as at the time ( 2004 ), there was nothing else

Read the first line on the front page -

"Welcome to Timesharetalk. Timesharetalk is Europe's largest Timeshare forum on the internet run by timeshare owners, for Timeshare owners. We cover all aspects of Timeshare from the good through to the bad. "

This has always been and always will be our moto.


Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 20:09:57
Quote from: Carolinian on January 09, 2013, 19:31:33
Actually, that is the date of the newspaper article that is quoted, not the post.

So you believe that the leopard can change his spots, and undoubtedly would welcome John ''Goldfinger'' Palmer into TATOC, in spite of his history, if he would promise that now he would swear by the TATOC code and be a good boy in the future!

. . . and you still haven't replied about Silverpoint.  What is your excuse there?


Quote from: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 19:25:18
A most interesting post from 8th July 2006

Unfortunately it does not appear to have any bearing on January 2013




Apologies I should have said a most interesting post from a News Article dated 8th July 2006 but I credit readers with the intelligence to realise that the post was relaying six and a half year old news.
With ref to your other post I will answer it in the very first paragraph below.


First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.

It is very easy for individuals to come on here anonymously, or go elsewhere and post allegations against others. There is no legal redress against them as more often than not they cannot be traced.

Carolinian says in his post of 8th Jan 2013 above:
Finally, Harry says he wants to'' investigate'' the Bullfrog (but apparently NOT Silverpointe).  If he were serious and sincere about that, he would have PM'ed me privately to ask for assistance, not started this ''in your face'' thread.  Among other things, when you are going to do an invesigation on someone, you hardly do that by announcing it in public and tipping them off.  If he had approached this in a sincere manner, I would have not hesitated to provide what help I could.

Harry Taylor started this thread with a post which contained the following:

Obviously for TATOC to advance a study into any affiliated company we need to have some form of proof that improprieties are currently taking place, or have taken place in the recent past during their affiliation to TATOC.
It would be unprofessional of us as an organisation with a growing stature to conduct such a study were it to be built on conjecture and rumour. Therefore would you please be so kind as to furnish TATOC with any such documented proof that you may have.
Harry Taylor


Fairly simple to comply with I would have thought. Unfortunately Carolinian has not been so kind as to assist, in fact far from it.
Harry Taylor has sent Carolinian 2 private messages on timesharetalk Carolinian has not responded or replied to either of them.

Harry Taylor has invited, at any time, a couple of the sceptics to see how TATOC works and how it is structured. One has so far declined the opportunity, one has not commented.

From my personal point of view I see it to be a great opportunity for someone to take up this offer from Harry.

If we cannot convince the sceptics by showing them TATOC at work then we must accept that we will never convince them by posting on forums. What will then happen is that TATOC will simply ignore those trying to flame the only credible timeshare consumer organisation there is out there.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 09, 2013, 20:39:58
First of all, Mavo, I am not trying to ''flame'' TATOC.  Harry started this thread, not me, and in the thread he referred to, I did not make the comment he objected to, but merely agreed with the part as to these two companies.  Unlike you, I have served as a president of the HOA board of a member-controlled timeshare resort, so I appreciate the need for well focused organizations that represent them.  I applaud TATOC's mission, but I think it may have gotten a bit off track by associating with some questionable developers.  IMHO TATOC is an organization that has a lot of potential and I would love to see it reach that potential. 

Secondly, I did reply to Harry's first PM, and told him that I did not believe he was serious or sincere for the same reasons I gave in an earlier post. Posting this thread as his opening gambit rather than PM'ing me was a dead giveaway that he was not serious. His second PM was more to blast me, so I saw no purpose in responding to that.

You claim that TATOC cannot comment about its inquiries into companies that it associates itself with.  If that is so, how can you explain Harry starting this public thread to comment on this one?  Odd, isn't it?  That is one of the very reasons that I do not take this ''investigation'' of the Bullfrog seriously.  What is the REAL gambit here?

As to the previous history of people in timeshare, I guess if John ''Goldfinger'' Palmer gets back in it, then we are supposed to forget his history, which is even older than 6 years.  And that dude who ran the Basil Jones Resort scam in Belize (I don't think anyone knows what his real name is, but he is a Brit), I guess if he resurfaces and starts developing another resort, we should just forget his history in Belize?  He has actually been tentatively identified as doing a similar scam elsewhere in the world using another name prior to Belize.  Too bad all the suckers who lost their money in Belize were not aware of that history before parting with their money.  How can you rationally suggest that people bury their heads in the sand and forget the prior histories - good or bad - of developers?

What I have posted above is an article from a major newspaper in South Africa, the native habitat of The Bullfrog, not an anonymous post on a blog.

And finally, Mavo, you keep ducking the question about Silverpoint.  Care to finally share your thoughts on that one? 
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 21:01:08
Carolinian your answer is again below.
First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.



Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 09, 2013, 21:15:10
The main reason why investigations are kept quiet is not to tip off the target so that they will cover up what they are doing.  That is why when Harry decides to launch this ''investigation'' of The Bullfrog and his companies by a very public challenge to me in this thread, something just did not smell right about the whole thing.  When he finally got around to PM'ing me it was days later.

I would hope that TATOC has an ongoing investigation of Silverpoint, and sends in an undercover team to one of their presentations wearing a wire so they can record some of the things that have been reported on these boards by some who have had experience with that organization. Or get a member of Silverpoint to attend a ''members update'' wearing a wire.  I will be pleasantly surprised if that comes about, but given the attitude relative to The Bullfrog, I am not holding my breath!

Quote from: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 21:01:08
Carolinian your answer is again below.
First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 21:21:54
First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 09, 2013, 21:30:41
Quote from: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 21:21:54
First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.


Oh, and is that why Harry launched this alleged investigation of The Bullfrog and his companies by starting this very public thread?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 21:35:16
First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 09, 2013, 21:47:59
Quote from: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 21:35:16
First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.


. . . except THIS ONE, apparently, because Harry made it VERY public by starting this thread.

But clearly all you are going to do is keep giving us the broken record routine, even when it does not match the facts.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 21:52:13
Tatoc welcomes and will investigate proof of current failures to comply with the code of conduct.
It will be conducted within the following policy.

First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.


Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 09, 2013, 21:56:39
Quote from: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 21:52:13
Tatoc welcomes and will investigate proof of current failures to comply with the code of conduct.
It will be conducted within the following policy.

First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.


Mavo, you have already posted this multiple times.  No need for the broken record.

But one obvious conclusion is that if Harry deviated from well established TATOC policy in making this alleged investigation of The Bullfrog very public by posting this thread, then clearly it was never a real investigation in the first place.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 22:22:19
CAROLINIAN.
Please do not talk about broken records. You will bite your butt off. (Lamont, Owner controlled resorts etc. etc. Yawn Yawn Yawn.)
I have only posted a phrase 4 or 5 times so far. You have been posting your mantra for 8 sodding years. (There were it seems 2 missing years, I wonder what they were about??) 

Do you now accept that I have answered your question. If not I will repost for your benefit as it may be that you have short term memory retention problems.
Just in case.
First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.

Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 09, 2013, 22:32:51
Gee, Mavo, I thought that member-controlled resorts was the very thing that TATOC was supposed to be about, and the main reason it was created.  You are on their board but look down your nose at that concept?

And based on the blinders you want TATOC to wear about the history of those it affiliates itself with, I am sure you would welcome ''Goldfinger'' Palmer with open arms into TATOC if he claimed to support the TATOC Code of Conduct NOW (no matter his history) and will be a good boy in the future.  Personally, I think if Palmer showed up on TATOC's doorstep, the door should be slammed in his face.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 22:47:57
You did not answer the questions Carolinian.
Why were you missing for 2 years and do you understand my answer to your question?

You seem to believe you have the right to question me. Does it not work both ways? 



Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 09, 2013, 23:08:49
I already posted that you were posting a broken record to avoid answering my questions, so yes I have already indicated that I understand your non-answer.

I have posted fairly regularly on these boards since I registered and have certainly NOT been absent from these boards for any two year period. 

You are the one who fails to answer questions.

Most recently you have criticized me for supporting member control of timeshare resorts, while you yourself are a board member of a group that is supposed to be supporting that very thing.  I might remind you of this language from TATOC's Code of Practice for timeshare committees:

''Be a committee of owner representatives elected by the owners''.

Quote from: Mavo on January 09, 2013, 22:47:57
You did not answer the questions Carolinian.
Why were you missing for 2 years and do you understand my answer to your question?

You seem to believe you have the right to question me. Does it not work both ways?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 10, 2013, 08:54:50
Lets look in more detail about the way TATOC is substantially narrowing what it says it would investigate.

First, it has to be a current member of TATOC.  That excludes the shananigans of The Bullfrog's South African companies, which are not members of TATOC.  The way they operate is a clear indication of the way The Bullfrog's organizataion operates, but they are arbitrarily excluded.

Second is the time factor, in which they will only consider things after the signing of the Code of Conduct by the company investigated, and they will not even give us that date for Flexiclub and now Spice / Aroma,meaning that anyone wanting to help them would be flying blind..  The Code of Conduct is dated April, 2011, so presumably it would have to be sometime after that date.  They are given automatic absolution of any sins committed before whatever date they signed.

A third factor is the Code of Conduct itself.  It is a rather short, vague, and general document.  Vague documents are always tremedously prone to subjective interpretation.  The judging body can interpret many things as either violations, or not, at their whim.  Specific standards lead to more objectivity, and forturnately, the Code of Conduct incorporates Codes of Practice in various areas that are intended to provide that specificity.  Unfortunately, however, the only ones now published on the TATOC site are the Codes of Practice for 1) timeshare committees, and 2) resellers.  No Codes of Practice are currently provided for timeshare developers, developer sales, or management, all key areas.  Since the companies in question here are neither resellers nor timeshare committees, there are no applicable Codes of Practice provided by TATOC to cover them.  It seems to me that those Codes of Practice should have been developed before TATOC started putting its stamp of approval on these companies.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 10, 2013, 10:19:47
The very first post on this thread seems to indicate that Carolinian was absent from posting on timesharetalk from the year 2006.
July 20th 23:58:57  until June 17th 09:27:12 2009.
I simply enquired as to his whereabouts. He replied with a non answer. I am sure that there has to be a logical answer.

There are 2 other things that readers may care to note.
1) I have never mentioned a Mr Palmer in any of my posts, certainly in the last few years.
2) I have never posted a view on Owner controlled resorts, either positive or negative.

These are both assumptions being made about me by Carolinian.

In conclusion Carolinian seems to build most of his posts on assumptions, rumours and unsubstantiated allegations.
Unfortunately those readers with any sense will accept that this is a basis which would be legally dangerous for TATOC to act upon.
The "broken record" reasoning being now well documented but I will repeat if necessary.
         
As I now intend to withdraw from this debate which I feel has become exhausted, I do hope that a broken record repeat will not be needed.



                 
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Alan R on January 10, 2013, 15:17:08
Why not give explicit and specific reasons why you believe Carolinian's posts are: assumptions, rumours and unsubstantiated allegations?

Where is the proof that you (and TATOC) are right and Carolinian is wrong?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 10, 2013, 17:14:18
On owner controlled resorts, see your post #48 above.

As to assumptions, your bizarre interpretation of Harry's obsession on my posts is a classical example of a baseless assumption.  If you had counted the number of my posts Harry referred to and compared it with my post count on this site, it would have been clear that Harry was picking and choosing among my posts, not cateloging all of them.  I clearly responded that, in fact, I have not been absent for any two year period (or anything remote close, for that matter).  If you  had any competence in using the search function, you undoubtedly could have figured that out by yourself, even if you failed to notice my post count.

As to ''Goldfinger'' Palmer, I was just applied the standard you want to apply on TATOC investigations to probably one of the worst offenders in recent times.  My point is that burying your head in the sand and ignoring past history is highly counterproductive.  I never said that you mentioned Palmer.  I only applied Palmer to your very flawed theory of what should be considered in giving someone the stamp of approval.


Quote from: Mavo on January 10, 2013, 10:19:47
The very first post on this thread seems to indicate that Carolinian was absent from posting on timesharetalk from the year 2006.
July 20th 23:58:57  until June 17th 09:27:12 2009.
I simply enquired as to his whereabouts. He replied with a non answer. I am sure that there has to be a logical answer.

There are 2 other things that readers may care to note.
1) I have never mentioned a Mr Palmer in any of my posts, certainly in the last few years.
2) I have never posted a view on Owner controlled resorts, either positive or negative.

These are both assumptions being made about me by Carolinian.

In conclusion Carolinian seems to build most of his posts on assumptions, rumours and unsubstantiated allegations.
Unfortunately those readers with any sense will accept that this is a basis which would be legally dangerous for TATOC to act upon.
The "broken record" reasoning being now well documented but I will repeat if necessary.
         
As I now intend to withdraw from this debate which I feel has become exhausted, I do hope that a broken record repeat will not be needed.



               
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 10, 2013, 18:38:47
Quote from: DNBTS on January 10, 2013, 15:17:08
Why not give explicit and specific reasons why you believe Carolinian's posts are: assumptions, rumours and unsubstantiated allegations?

Where is the proof that you (and TATOC) are right and Carolinian is wrong?


Mavo and Harry rarely if ever seem to want to try their hand at a detailed counterargument against any position they do not like.  That is probably because the facts are not their friends.  Instead they try to blow them off with a generalized put down, or throw up red herrings like Mavo's bizarre contention that I had been absent from these boards for two years.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: charlie1 on January 10, 2013, 22:00:49
There has been some peculiar comments made not relevant to the thread. I have over the years noted postings from all those who have mainly been involved in this debate. I am surprised how a little personal this has become towards Carolinian and wonder why. I am inclined to agree with Carolinian that history should have some bearing. I have sat down with a number of timeshare owners from Spice/Aroma and Silverpoints/........... Reviewing complaints in particular the former company of Silverpoints to know that there is real substance to these past allegations. No one dares to mention the problems associated with the former company of Silverpoints or even Silverpoints. Has anyone beyond a forum moan (apart from the Daily Mail) mention a complaint about them publicly? Silverpoints as we know are well connected. Never a mention by RADO, perhaps its easier to chase the smaller game?

However I have not come across any serious complaints from Aroma or Silverpoints. In fact the CEO of Silverpoints I have found very open when resolving past issues with clients and is prepared to give his time. How many CEO are prepared to do that? 
As far as TATOC are concerned they are in a difficult position, weather they like it or not Silverpoints and Aroma are heavy weights in the Industry and can not be ignored, they are not going away. Perhaps you have to swim with the sharks for a while, perhaps a leopard can change its spots.

Time will tell and perhaps this little thread may one day be referred back to. Lets hope its for the right reasons.  :-\
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 10, 2013, 23:06:32
Charlie- Most of the scoop on The Bullfrog and his companies comes from his operations in South Africa.

Here, for example, is the page on Flexi-Club from the South Africa consumer website ''Hello Peter'':

http://hellopeter.com/search-reports?keyword=Flexi+club

WHile I have not counted them myself, according to another timesharer who has, Flexi-Club has significcantly more complaints on Hello Peter, the largest online consumer site in SA, than all other timeshare companies combined.

As to Silverpoint, most of what I have learned about them is from posts on these boards, and from what I read there, an investigation should certainly be in order.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: martyboy02 on January 11, 2013, 16:01:12
Nice to see that Silverpoint were mentioned on te BBC yesterday, yes, for all the wrong reasons. Yet more scamming.

Pity the programme didn't go more in depth, or talk to more interested parties.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: charlie1 on January 11, 2013, 16:18:11
Hi Marty out of curiosity I did a quick search online BBC Silverpoints all I could find was Silverpoints matching their owners and guests contributions with a small donation to a children's charity. A nice promotion for them, but still good to see.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Alan R on January 11, 2013, 16:56:01
Quote from: martyboy02 on January 11, 2013, 16:01:12
Nice to see that Silverpoint were mentioned on te BBC yesterday, yes, for all the wrong reasons. Yet more scamming.

Pity the programme didn't go more in depth, or talk to more interested parties.


Martboy02,

I see that Silverpoint are listed on the TATOC website as Platinum Affiliates. It seems from what I read on the site that businesses that offer quality, customer focused products and services to the industry can now become TATOC affiliates.

A link takes you their website and the following statement:

Silverpoint is committed to providing the very best leisure products in the world through a genuine regard for the consumer and the very highest levels of service.

I didn't see anything negative there  ;)...................................so what TV program are you talking about?

charlie1

I agree - good to see charitable donations being made.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: martyboy02 on January 11, 2013, 17:21:58
Rip Off Britain.

Silverpoint bought out a company that had ripped people off and gone under. Silverpoint has repayed some victims, but some of the persons from the company now work for Silverpoint.

Is it not ridiculous that you can rip people off change your hat and then become God gift.

Until things such as this are stopped the industry will never leave murkey waters.

Bring in Licensing sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 11, 2013, 20:07:24
Is TATOC embarassed that companies that they give their stamp of approval to are being featured in major media for scamming?  Looks like they would fast track some serious investigation.

Quote from: martyboy02 on January 11, 2013, 16:01:12
Nice to see that Silverpoint were mentioned on te BBC yesterday, yes, for all the wrong reasons. Yet more scamming.

Pity the programme didn't go more in depth, or talk to more interested parties.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 11, 2013, 20:49:46
Quote from: Carolinian on January 11, 2013, 20:07:24
Is TATOC embarassed that companies that they give their stamp of approval to are being featured in major media for scamming?  Looks like they would fast track some serious investigation.

Quote from: martyboy02 on January 11, 2013, 16:01:12
Nice to see that Silverpoint were mentioned on te BBC yesterday, yes, for all the wrong reasons. Yet more scamming.

Pity the programme didn't go more in depth, or talk to more interested parties.



Is Carolinian turning timesharetalk into Crimesharetalk by now posting possible libelous mischief from his anonymous hidaway?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 11, 2013, 21:17:38
Just commenting on what MartyBoy reported was on the BBC, Mavo.

Are you now crusading as a defender of Silverpoint, after all that has been reported about them on these boards, and now apparently on the BBC?

Of course, there is also that inconvenient article from a major South African newspaper about The Bullfrog and his companies.  And all those inconvenient consumer complaints about FLexi-Club on Hello Peter.

Quote from: Mavo on January 11, 2013, 20:49:46
Quote from: Carolinian on January 11, 2013, 20:07:24
Is TATOC embarassed that companies that they give their stamp of approval to are being featured in major media for scamming?  Looks like they would fast track some serious investigation.

Quote from: martyboy02 on January 11, 2013, 16:01:12
Nice to see that Silverpoint were mentioned on te BBC yesterday, yes, for all the wrong reasons. Yet more scamming.

Pity the programme didn't go more in depth, or talk to more interested parties.



Is Carolinian turning timesharetalk into Crimesharetalk by now posting possible libelous mischief from his anonymous hidaway?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 11, 2013, 22:03:01
Quote from: Carolinian on January 11, 2013, 21:17:38
Just commenting on what MartyBoy reported was on the BBC, Mavo.

Are you now crusading as a defender of Silverpoint, after all that has been reported about them on these boards, and now apparently on the BBC?

Of course, there is also that inconvenient article from a major South African newspaper about The Bullfrog and his companies.  And all those inconvenient consumer complaints about FLexi-Club on Hello Peter.

Quote from: Mavo on January 11, 2013, 20:49:46
Quote from: Carolinian on January 11, 2013, 20:07:24
Is TATOC embarassed that companies that they give their stamp of approval to are being featured in major media for scamming?  Looks like they would fast track some serious investigation.

Quote from: martyboy02 on January 11, 2013, 16:01:12
Nice to see that Silverpoint were mentioned on te BBC yesterday, yes, for all the wrong reasons. Yet more scamming.

Pity the programme didn't go more in depth, or talk to more interested parties.



Is Carolinian turning timesharetalk into Crimesharetalk by now posting possible libelous mischief from his anonymous hidaway?



The program was around scamming. There was no allegation that Silverpoint had been doing the scamming. (Yet again, you assumed it) The mention of Silverpoint was simply the fact that they were sorting it out although they had no legal obligation to do so.

I am not supporting anybody I am sticking to what the program had to say.

Further to your posts elsewhere on this site. TATOC uses its small income and resources in areas where it believes it serves best the interests of its mission statement. There are lots of areas where we would like to expand into in order to improve things for timeshare users but we are bound by financial constraints. If we seek financial aid to expand our services to the consumer, who do we turn to without incurring suspicion and negativity from people such as yourself?
Please do not suggest the consumer moneymaker in America where members pay $100 per annum for others to trouser and allegedly do nothing. 
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 11, 2013, 22:44:29
Is that why TATOC has been so slow in putting out a Code of Practice for developers' sales?

Mavo, I think you have just shed some light on why TATOC looks the other way for certain players.

I have read a lot of info about Silverpoint on this site, just as I read comments about developers like Westgate on US sites.  Where there is smoke, there is likely fire.  What I am suggesting is that TATOC take a real look at some of these people before putting its mark of approval on them.  By a real look, I mean examining their whole history.  Westgate is outside your turf, naturally, unless they open a resort in Europe, and then what they have done in America would become relevent.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 11, 2013, 22:53:33
Quote from: Carolinian on January 11, 2013, 22:44:29
Is that why TATOC has been so slow in putting out a Code of Practice for developers' sales?

Mavo, I think you have just shed some light on why TATOC looks the other way for certain players.

I have read a lot of info about Silverpoint on this site, just as I read comments about developers like Westgate on US sites.  Where there is smoke, there is likely fire.  What I am suggesting is that TATOC take a real look at some of these people before putting its mark of approval on them.  By a real look, I mean examining their whole history.  Westgate is outside your turf, naturally, unless they open a resort in Europe, and then what they have done in America would become relevent.


You are deflecting yet again from your libelous post.

You seem to struggle with fact again and simply use  the quoting of others to create you mischief. Can you not stand alone using your own name and words without relying on your regular "he says she says"  get out clauses?







Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 13, 2013, 09:52:13
While I did not see the Rip-Off Britain segment on Silverpoint myself, it is clear that you and MartyBoy have completely different spins on what it said.  You always wear rose colored glasses, so I know which one of you I tend to believe.

You also seem to ignore that posts that have been made on these boards by people with direct experience of Silverpoint.  Those, I tend to belive far more than I do you, as you are a knee-jerk cheerleader for anything in timeshare, and close your eyes to the fact that while timeshare has many positives, it does have its share of negatives, too.  You and TATOC need to realize that all of the negatives are not found just in the resale industry, although they do, indeed, have their share of them.

Quote from: Mavo on January 11, 2013, 22:53:33
Quote from: Carolinian on January 11, 2013, 22:44:29
Is that why TATOC has been so slow in putting out a Code of Practice for developers' sales?

Mavo, I think you have just shed some light on why TATOC looks the other way for certain players.

I have read a lot of info about Silverpoint on this site, just as I read comments about developers like Westgate on US sites.  Where there is smoke, there is likely fire.  What I am suggesting is that TATOC take a real look at some of these people before putting its mark of approval on them.  By a real look, I mean examining their whole history.  Westgate is outside your turf, naturally, unless they open a resort in Europe, and then what they have done in America would become relevent.


You are deflecting yet again from your libelous post.

You seem to struggle with fact again and simply use  the quoting of others to create you mischief. Can you not stand alone using your own name and words without relying on your regular "he says she says"  get out clauses?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 13, 2013, 11:37:31
I am sure that there will be those who recorded the program who will be able to confirm the fact that Silverpoint were not accused of scamming on the program. The accused, by the BBC, were the company who sold the products in the first place.
Silverpoint were spoken of as the company who had taken over from the previous owners. It was "indicated" that the program pressure was responsible for Silverpoint coming to an arrangement with the couple called Rodgers.

Silverpoint do not have a legal obligation to help those who were scammed before their takeover of Resort Properties.
However there are those who believe that they have a moral obligation to the consumers.
It would seem too that there are those within Silverpoint who also feel this, as if a search of timesharetalk is made via search for members -Silverpoint CS you will find that there are a large number of posts by Customer Services inviting contact from those who feel they were missold by Resort Properties.

But hey! Why not ask Martyboy if Silverpoint were really accused of scamming on the program?
Guilty by attachment? Only in the eyes of the totally blinkered negative element.

I am accused of being timeshare bias because I refuse to be a pessimist. Some of you need to look at yourselves and try to find something constructive about your persistent stance and efforts to undermine the industry at every perceived opportunity.

Again Carolinian yet another example of your perchance for using the "he says, she says" opening.
I will keep showing you for what you are every time you stoop to it.

You  and others have been invited to see what TATOC really does and how it is constructed and works. Until you do so you will continue to get it so very wrong.
       
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 13, 2013, 12:35:38
You ignore the posts on this site by those who have had direct personal experiece with Silverpoint, not just its predecessor.  And it is not just sales issues that come up.  Others have commented on another reprehensible tactic they employ, charging a large extra fee for using independent exchange companies which is a monopolistic practice in the exchanging industry.  I don't think that issue is hard to investigate at all.  How can TATOC promote a company that tramples upon member rights in such a fashion?

Mavo, your problem is that you cannot see that there are both positives and negatives in timesharing, and those of us who comment both ways are constantly dealt with by you as only being negatives.  Open your eyes.

And, hey, aren't you the one behind this silly requirement on this site to call the company also known as Sunterror ''the former company''? Isn't that just a coverup of the industry's sometimes dark side?  Especially now that comments about this company are basically of historic interest?

Quote from: Mavo on January 13, 2013, 11:37:31
I am sure that there will be those who recorded the program who will be able to confirm the fact that Silverpoint were not accused of scamming on the program. The accused, by the BBC, were the company who sold the products in the first place.
Silverpoint were spoken of as the company who had taken over from the previous owners. It was "indicated" that the program pressure was responsible for Silverpoint coming to an arrangement with the couple called Rodgers.

Silverpoint do not have a legal obligation to help those who were scammed before their takeover of Resort Properties.
However there are those who believe that they have a moral obligation to the consumers.
It would seem too that there are those within Silverpoint who also feel this, as if a search of timesharetalk is made via search for members -Silverpoint CS you will find that there are a large number of posts by Customer Services inviting contact from those who feel they were missold by Resort Properties.

But hey! Why not ask Martyboy if Silverpoint were really accused of scamming on the program?
Guilty by attachment? Only in the eyes of the totally blinkered negative element.

I am accused of being timeshare bias because I refuse to be a pessimist. Some of you need to look at yourselves and try to find something constructive about your persistent stance and efforts to undermine the industry at every perceived opportunity.

Again Carolinian yet another example of your perchance for using the "he says, she says" opening.
I will keep showing you for what you are every time you stoop to it.

You  and others have been invited to see what TATOC really does and how it is constructed and works. Until you do so you will continue to get it so very wrong.
     
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 13, 2013, 12:44:00
Of course it can now be seen by all that you are trying to change the subject, which was about your accusation by assumption that Silverpoint had been directly involved in the scam reported on the program shown on the BBC on Thursday.
Do you now accept that you were wrong in that assumption?
Or do you now wish to change the subject to avoid further embarassment to yourself.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 13, 2013, 12:49:56
Well, no, I simply responded to the comment of another poster who had said that the BBC program had reported scamming by Silverpoint, and asked the question about how TATOC felt about putting its stamp of approval on such a company.  You are the one who has been trying to wiggle off that hook ever since.

Now I have added another issue that should concern TATOC about Silverpoint, and this one is something you cannot spin away, so you try to avoid this question by accusing me of changing the subject.

Quote from: Mavo on January 13, 2013, 12:44:00
Of course it can now be seen by all that you are trying to change the subject, which was about your accusation by assumption that Silverpoint had been directly involved in the scam reported on the program shown on the BBC on Thursday.
Do you now accept that you were wrong in that assumption?
Or do you now wish to change the subject to avoid further embarassment to yourself.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 13, 2013, 13:07:27
Quote from: Carolinian on January 13, 2013, 12:49:56
Well, no, I simply responded to the comment of another poster who had said that the BBC program had reported scamming by Silverpoint, and asked the question about how TATOC felt about putting its stamp of approval on such a company.  You are the one who has been trying to wiggle off that hook ever since.

Now I have added another issue that should concern TATOC about Silverpoint, and this one is something you cannot spin away, so you try to avoid this question by accusing me of changing the subject.

Quote from: Mavo on January 13, 2013, 12:44:00
Of course it can now be seen by all that you are trying to change the subject, which was about your accusation by assumption that Silverpoint had been directly involved in the scam reported on the program shown on the BBC on Thursday.
Do you now accept that you were wrong in that assumption?
Or do you now wish to change the subject to avoid further embarassment to yourself.




You are trying to now change the subject. Stop pretending.

If you have specific proof of any affiliate of TATOC not adhering to the code of conduct then please furnish that proof.

First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 13, 2013, 14:23:14
 Now you are back to your broken record.  As to timeshare developers, your vague and general Code of Conduct is incomplete because TATOC has not put out the Code of Practice, which covers the specifics, for developer sales or for ''timeshare companies''.   I am being proactive by starting a thread for members to post suggestions to help TATOC finally complete the missing links of its Code of Conduct, namely the missing Codes of Practice in certain areas.  I notice that you have not responded to those suggestions.

The subject has always been whether Silverpoint and Spice / Aroma merit TATOC giving their stamp of approval.  When you try to artificially narrow that subject, you are the one changing the subject.  I have pointed out an area where Silverpoint is trampliing on the rights of their members that is easy to prove, and you simply do not want to respond to that.  What I am saying is not that they need to be summarily kicked out, but that enough is out there that they merit a real investigation, and as to Spice / Aroma the fact that Harry deviated from TATOC policy by starting this thread is a clear indication that he does not intend to do a real investigation there.  We can hope that maybe TATOC will as to Silverpoint, but I would not hold my breath.

Before you start holding up your Code of Conduct as a standard for all, you need to complete the missing links in the Codes of Practice, which have been a big gap in your project for almost two years now.

As to being positive or negative, I call them as I see them, and that is some of both.  For example, with your first love, DRI, I have made positive comments when they have done positive things like their relationship with Hapimag, or their taking the first steps to allow their members to resell their timeshares outside existing members, and I have posted negative things when they have done things like forcing out the weeks-based original members at Wychnor Park (which you supported at the time) or the horror story at Point at Poipu.

Quote from: Mavo on January 13, 2013, 13:07:27
Quote from: Carolinian on January 13, 2013, 12:49:56
Well, no, I simply responded to the comment of another poster who had said that the BBC program had reported scamming by Silverpoint, and asked the question about how TATOC felt about putting its stamp of approval on such a company.  You are the one who has been trying to wiggle off that hook ever since.

Now I have added another issue that should concern TATOC about Silverpoint, and this one is something you cannot spin away, so you try to avoid this question by accusing me of changing the subject.

Quote from: Mavo on January 13, 2013, 12:44:00
Of course it can now be seen by all that you are trying to change the subject, which was about your accusation by assumption that Silverpoint had been directly involved in the scam reported on the program shown on the BBC on Thursday.
Do you now accept that you were wrong in that assumption?
Or do you now wish to change the subject to avoid further embarassment to yourself.




You are trying to now change the subject. Stop pretending.

If you have specific proof of any affiliate of TATOC not adhering to the code of conduct then please furnish that proof.

First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 13, 2013, 14:27:17
Well we seem to be back to the same old place.
I have answered Martyboys post as to it not being a true reflection of what was said on the BBC program.
I have also challenged you Carolinian for your tag along in blind belief to Martyboys shirt tails.
We seem to have gone round in a circle and are now back to you Carolinian and your wild inaccurate assunptions where you use whatever "he says she says" material you can dig up from around all 4 corners of the world in order to try to prove I know not what!
Having achieved my goal I see no further need to contribute to this thread.
The answer from me remains the same as ever.
We need proof in order to act as.

First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.

You see just how predictable you are Carolinian. I can have a response to you already written and prepared so that I can respond in seconds. 
   
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 13, 2013, 14:39:39
yes, you are going in circles, especially with your broken record, which I am sure is part of your boiler plate response.

You want to ignore all of the material that has been posted on these boards about Silverpoint. You could start with posts on these boards about Silverpoint like this one: http://www.timesharetalk.co.uk/index.php?topic=17117.msg51377#msg51377  You also want to ignore the easily provable situation where Silverpoint is trampling on members rights by charging large extra fees to use independent exchange companies.  You ignore the past history of The Bullfrog's companies in South Africa and very fresh pile of complaints on South Africa's premier consumer website.

You want to use a Code of Conduct that is totally imcomplete as to timeshare developer sales and ''timeshare companies'' with its Codes of Practice that provide the specifics on those subjects being missing for almost two years.

What you and Harry seem to want to do is to narrow what you are willing to investigate to the point that you do not have to investigate at all and endanger TATOC's cash cows.  This thread very clearly shows that.  That is probably also why those Codes of Practices have been left unfinished for so long.  Either the final result will step on some of those developers toes or it will be a joke for consumers, so you leave it in limbo.


Quote from: Mavo on January 13, 2013, 14:27:17
Well we seem to be back to the same old place.
I have answered Martyboys post as to it not being a true reflection of what was said on the BBC program.
I have also challenged you Carolinian for your tag along in blind belief to Martyboys shirt tails.
We seem to have gone round in a circle and are now back to you Carolinian and your wild inaccurate assunptions where you use whatever "he says she says" material you can dig up from around all 4 corners of the world in order to try to prove I know not what!
Having achieved my goal I see no further need to contribute to this thread.
The answer from me remains the same as ever.
We need proof in order to act as.

First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.

You see just how predictable you are Carolinian. I can have a response to you already written and prepared so that I can respond in seconds. 

Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 13, 2013, 14:56:42
Here is the full post above.  Something in the system has deleted parts of it when I editted another part, but here is the whole thing:yes, you are going in circles, especially with your broken record, which I am sure is part of your boiler plate response.

You want to ignore all of the material that has been posted on these boards about Silverpoint. You could start with posts on these boards about Silverpoint like this one: http://www.timesharetalk.co.uk/index.php?topic=17117.msg51377#msg51377  You also want to ignore the easily provable situation where Silverpoint is trampling on members rights by charging large extra fees to use independent exchange companies.  You ignore the past history of The Bullfrog's companies in South Africa and very fresh pile of complaints on South Africa's premier consumer website.

You want to use a Code of Conduct that is totally imcomplete as to timeshare developer sales and ''timeshare companies'' with its Codes of Practice that provide the specifics on those subjects being missing for almost two years.

What you and Harry seem to want to do is to narrow what you are willing to investigate to the point that you do not have to investigate at all and endanger TATOC's cash cows.  This thread very clearly shows that.  That is probably also why those Codes of Practices have been left unfinished for so long.  Either the final result will step on some of those developers toes or it will be a joke for consumers, so you leave it in limbo.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 13, 2013, 14:58:56
This is whacky.  I copy the whole post as it was, and the system shows me it is there but then knocks out most of it.

HERE IS THE REST OF MY POST FROM ABOVE, IF THIS WORKS:

You also want to ignore the easily provable situation where Silverpoint is trampling on members rights by charging large extra fees to use independent exchange companies.  You ignore the past history of The Bullfrog's companies in South Africa and very fresh pile of complaints on South Africa's premier consumer website.

You want to use a Code of Conduct that is totally imcomplete as to timeshare developer sales and ''timeshare companies'' with its Codes of Practice that provide the specifics on those subjects being missing for almost two years.

What you and Harry seem to want to do is to narrow what you are willing to investigate to the point that you do not have to investigate at all and endanger TATOC's cash cows.  This thread very clearly shows that.  That is probably also why those Codes of Practice have been left unfinished for so long.  Either the final result will step on some of those developers toes or it will be a joke for consumers, so you leave it in limbo.


Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 13, 2013, 15:14:04
I also find it odd that one Alberto Garcia of Mindtimeshare is on the agenda for the 2013 TATOC conference, in light of this:

http://www.mindtimesharetruth.com/2011/12/20/mindtimeshare-alberto-garciaresort-properties-scam-exposed/
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: martyboy02 on January 13, 2013, 16:28:13
Prople seem to put thier own spin on my point to suit thier own purposes.

Yes Silverpoint ave repayed SOME people. Very noble and commendable.

But why employ those who caused the choas in the first instance. It woun't be long before they are all contaminated.

TATOC has to be in contact with these companies, a case of keep your friends close and enemies closer still.

Lets ope they (TATOC) turn into another lame duck RDO.

Its about time Timeshare reps were licensed through EU consumer protection.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Alan R on January 13, 2013, 17:19:45
Quote from: Carolinian on January 13, 2013, 15:14:04
I also find it odd that one Alberto Garcia of Mindtimeshare is on the agenda for the 2013 TATOC conference, in light of this:

http://www.mindtimesharetruth.com/2011/12/20/mindtimeshare-alberto-garciaresort-properties-scam-exposed/


Very interesting stuff.

I especially enjoyed reading the section (on mindtimesharetruth.com) posted on the 7th April 2012 by the ex-sales employee.  A lot of what was written parallels my experience last year. I was told at the end of the sales pitch, when they were getting desperate, that we would be able to sell our points in the not-too-distant future and make a five figure sum well in excess of our proposed original investment.  At this point there was an aroma consistent with rodent infestation and we didn't proceed, and I am so relieved about that...........!
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 13, 2013, 17:50:55
Quote from: martyboy02 on January 13, 2013, 16:28:13
Prople seem to put thier own spin on my point to suit thier own purposes.

Yes Silverpoint ave repayed SOME people. Very noble and commendable.

But why employ those who caused the choas in the first instance. It woun't be long before they are all contaminated.

TATOC has to be in contact with these companies, a case of keep your friends close and enemies closer still.

Lets ope they (TATOC) turn into another lame duck RDO.

Its about time Timeshare reps were licensed through EU consumer protection.


Which point do you mean Martyboy? The one where you wrongly implied that Silverpoint had been scamming as per the Rip off Britain program about Resort Properties? Or the point that there had been what some could call a management buyout by Silverpoint thus retaining some of those initially responsible. ( Your point being that you feel that this is unacceptable)?

I also think that you believe RDO to be a lame duck and you express the wish that TATOC does not become a lame duck also.
Is that correct because it is not how your post reads.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Alan R on January 14, 2013, 08:22:11
So answer this Mavo:

1. Are all the points put forward (in this thread) by Carolinian completely wrong?

2. Are all the points put forward (in this thread) by martyboy02 completely wrong?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 14, 2013, 10:01:01
Quote from: DNBTS on January 14, 2013, 08:22:11
So answer this Mavo:

1. Are all the points put forward (in this thread) by Carolinian completely wrong?

2. Are all the points put forward (in this thread) by martyboy02 completely wrong?


I have no idea as to whether all Carolinians points are right or wrong as he/she jumps around from one "he says she says" link to another and I have long since lost the inclination to trawl through it all. What I do know is that I have seen no proof of his accusations and until I do then I will continue to post my now stock response.
 
I think that Martyboy has only made 2 relevant posts on this thread. One was where he phrased a sentence in such a way that readers may have been led to the conclusion that a BBC program had accused Silverpoint of scamming when in fact the program had done no such thing. If the BBC had any proof they would have shouted it long and loud as they currently need all the "brownie points" they can get.

His second point seemed to be that he felt that those who had worked for Resort Properties should not now be working for Silverpoint.
He is allowed that viewpoint, however it is a historically wrong viewpoint.
In the private sector, (where Silverpoint sits) when a company is taken over, bought out or sold on, I have never seen all the staff lose their jobs.
It is normal that the staff, in the main, will remain in situe and be asked to adapt to new policies and a new regime. Those who do not or cannot adapt to new ways of working as required by the new employer will show themselves over a short period of time and thus will be filtered out.
In conclusion. If employees are capable of adopting a regime of poor practice, they are equally capable of adapting to a regime of good practice.     
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Alan R on January 14, 2013, 10:16:15
Mavo, please refer to this link:

http://www.mindtimesharetruth.com/2011/12/20/mindtimeshare-alberto-garciaresort-properties-scam-exposed/

See the comments made under:

Ex-Employee says:   
April 7, 2012 at 12:30 pm

I imagine TATOC are now well aware of the accusations being made by various parties and the action being taken through the courts.  Have the alleged sales tactics been investigated by TATOC?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 14, 2013, 10:19:48
Quote from: DNBTS on January 14, 2013, 10:16:15
Mavo, please refer to this link:

http://www.mindtimesharetruth.com/2011/12/20/mindtimeshare-alberto-garciaresort-properties-scam-exposed/

See the comments made under:

Ex-Employee says:   
April 7, 2012 at 12:30 pm

I imagine TATOC are now well aware of the accusations being made by various parties and the action being taken through the courts.  Have the alleged sales tactics been investigated by TATOC?


In answer to your question.
First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.


* With my TATOC hat on it is the only way I can legally answer your question. How long is it going to take for it to get through to you and others?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Alan R on January 14, 2013, 10:41:12
Quote from: Mavo on January 14, 2013, 10:19:48
Quote from: DNBTS on January 14, 2013, 10:16:15
Mavo, please refer to this link:

http://www.mindtimesharetruth.com/2011/12/20/mindtimeshare-alberto-garciaresort-properties-scam-exposed/

See the comments made under:

Ex-Employee says:   
April 7, 2012 at 12:30 pm

I imagine TATOC are now well aware of the accusations being made by various parties and the action being taken through the courts.  Have the alleged sales tactics been investigated by TATOC?


In answer to your question.
First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.


* With my TATOC hat on it is the only way I can legally answer your question. How long is it going to take for it to get through to you and others?


I feel sure that it is possible for you to say, without crossing any legal boundaries, whether the sales practices have been audited or investigated.  Your reply does nothing to inspire any confidence (in me) that TATOC is preventing these alleged sales practices from continuing, whether it be the company in question or any other TS company.

I am merely asking questions, I have not made any accusations.  I am inviting you to post comments that refute the claims made by others. I am not attacking you or TATOC, I would really like to get a "warm and fuzzy feeling" about TATOC, but I'm not getting it - sorry but there it is.  My knowledge of the TS world is limited, which I'm sure is the case with most TS owners. I'm after answers, not excuses for not answering.  There is a lot of stuff written on internet websites and I have no way of telling if it's a true reflection of what is and has been going on in the TS world. 

As far as my endeavours are concerned, it looks like one for St.Jude - a lost cause!
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 14, 2013, 11:25:38
There have been other posts on these boards from people with direct experience with Silverpoint.  I could post other links from this board, including one that posted a ''candid camera'' discussion on YouTube and a link was posted by the person involved on TST.  But if Mavo is correct, TATOC has blinders on and simply does not have any intention of conducting any investigations of the developers that help finance it.  They expect someone else to spend their time (and money) to lay sworn affidavits in their hands.  They have been given plenty of leads if they were genuine in their talk of doing investigations, but they clearly do not intend to follow those leads.  That is the point of Mavo's broken record.

Some would be incredibly easy for them to investigate.  Silverpoint has been accused by others on these boards of charging large extra fees if their members want to use independent exchange companies, something that goosesteps all over the rights of its members.  That is reprehensible, and should be grounds for a demand to change or face expulsion.  It would be very easy for TATOC to confirm this with the independent exchange companies and then confront Silverpoint, but they will not even do that.

As to the allegations about sales practices at Silverpoint, these boards give them plenty of leads to follow, and their inaction on them is their own fault.  They cannot blame anyone else.

If they are going to have any credibility, they also need to complete their Code of Practice for developer sales.

The concept behind TATOC is great.  They could be a tremendous asset to timesharing, but they will not be if they are intent on being RDO's poodle.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 14, 2013, 11:30:23
Don't you see how ridiculous your mantra looks when it was Harry, on behalf of TATOC who started this thread to make these potential investigations PUBLIC, not private.  What hypocrisy.

Quote from: Mavo on January 14, 2013, 10:19:48
Quote from: DNBTS on January 14, 2013, 10:16:15
Mavo, please refer to this link:

http://www.mindtimesharetruth.com/2011/12/20/mindtimeshare-alberto-garciaresort-properties-scam-exposed/

See the comments made under:

Ex-Employee says:   
April 7, 2012 at 12:30 pm

I imagine TATOC are now well aware of the accusations being made by various parties and the action being taken through the courts.  Have the alleged sales tactics been investigated by TATOC?


In answer to your question.
First and foremost, TATOC cannot publicly comment on any enquiries, sanctions or investigations it makes into the activities of any of its affiliated companies. This is policy built on legal advice.
What it can and does do is to make enquiries through various means when allegations are made about affiliated companies and this is exactly what it does. This takes place privately out of legal necessity.


* With my TATOC hat on it is the only way I can legally answer your question. How long is it going to take for it to get through to you and others?
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 14, 2013, 11:35:00
It is not possible for me to say at any time whether any company is being investigated.
One reason is that I am currently not a party to that side of things, as I have said before.
The second reason is very logical and the reason TATOC cannot publish that type of information is as follows.
If an investigation is published as ongoing and the party is ultimately found to be doing nothing wrong then the damage done by the notion that (to use the words of others) there is no smoke without fire could lead to legal implications for TATOC.
So TATOC have been advised by legal experts that all investigations must remain private. Again this is as I have said before.

It may not be what you want to hear but it is what is best for TATOC and the consumers it represents.
You have now taken things back to the area where I had ceased commenting on and again, as I have said before, we are just going over and over old ground so I will once more cease commenting. 

If you feel uncomfortable or unsure you always have the open offer from Harry.


Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Carolinian on January 14, 2013, 12:14:08
Oh, and is that why Harry started this thread to publicize a potential investigation of one or two specific companies??

I have asked that question before but not gotten an answer.


Quote from: Mavo on January 14, 2013, 11:35:00
It is not possible for me to say at any time whether any company is being investigated.
One reason is that I am currently not a party to that side of things, as I have said before.
The second reason is very logical and the reason TATOC cannot publish that type of information is as follows.
If an investigation is published as ongoing and the party is ultimately found to be doing nothing wrong then the damage done by the notion that (to use the words of others) there is no smoke without fire could lead to legal implications for TATOC.
So TATOC have been advised by legal experts that all investigations must remain private. Again this is as I have said before.

It may not be what you want to hear but it is what is best for TATOC and the consumers it represents.
You have now taken things back to the area where I had ceased commenting on and again, as I have said before, we are just going over and over old ground so I will once more cease commenting. 

If you feel uncomfortable or unsure you always have the open offer from Harry.
Title: Re: TATOC Affiliated Companies
Post by: Mavo on January 15, 2013, 10:16:06
I have discussed this thread with others and probably one of the most important pieces of advice I got was that it did not really matter what we or I said or revealed about TATOC as the detractors would not believe it anyway. They will only believe what they want to believe. They have not taken up Harry`s generous offer so we can only conclude that they are stuck within what they wish to believe.


With the above in mind I am now locking this thread and the very small number of those who wish to cause mischief and harm to TATOC and the timeshare industry can do their worst.
I would recommend however that they do not do so on the TATOC Forum as this will result in a possible ban for those stepping over the line by putting up deliberately distruptive postings.